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Old 12-05-2005, 04:47 AM   #1
Derekleu
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Default URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

Ok, so I follow the Haynes manual: spray liberal amounts of Carb cleaner into throttle body in order to clear out any carbon deposits (black crud streamed out of the throttle body, then started coming out clear). I do this, wait 15 mins or so, and then try to start the car.

Hell breaks loose: I get a SES light, a new light that I've never seen before that says service with a wrench next to it and the car will not start.

The car cranks, but will not start.

I took the throttle body off to see what was going on, it seems there are a few cavities completely coated in that black soot where there seem to be sensors.

What did I do, and how do I undo it? This is my only car and I need this baby running for work tomorrow!!!

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

-Derek
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Old 12-05-2005, 04:52 AM   #2
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derekleu
Ok, so I follow the Haynes manual: spray liberal amounts of Carb cleaner into throttle body in order to clear out any carbon deposits (black crud streamed out of the throttle body, then started coming out clear). I do this, wait 15 mins or so, and then try to start the car.

Hell breaks loose: I get a SES light, a new light that I've never seen before that says service with a wrench next to it and the car will not start.

The car cranks, but will not start.

I took the throttle body off to see what was going on, it seems there are a few cavities completely coated in that black soot where there seem to be sensors.

What did I do, and how do I undo it? This is my only car and I need this baby running for work tomorrow!!!

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

-Derek

Sounds like you need to properly clean the throttle body now that you've "hosed" it off.

Get to work with an old toothbrush and some more carb cleaner. Lots of specific instructions in various threads, and probably something specific to this in the How-To Technical Library. The forum search engine is your friend.

Quick summary: The entire throat area where the butterfly valve seats when the throttle is closed needs to be clean, and the tiny port to the Idle Air Control (IAC) valve needs to be clear of any obstructions. It's easy to plug up. Search the forum for more details.
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Old 12-05-2005, 04:56 AM   #3
Derekleu
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

LOL, I am sweating bullets right now. I changed the ECTS, Thermostat, sparkplugs, and everything worked, I spay some crap into my intake and I totally killed my car.

I have to go to pep boys on foot, I will be back with news.

Quick reply much appreciated, I was refreshing this page every 10 seconds.

-Derek
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Old 12-05-2005, 05:27 AM   #4
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derekleu
LOL, I am sweating bullets right now. I changed the ECTS, Thermostat, sparkplugs, and everything worked...
Quick clarification: Are you sure "everything worked" after you changed the plug wires? If not, you may want to check the order. You may have gotten them mixed up during installation.
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Old 12-05-2005, 05:29 AM   #5
Derekleu
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

Yeah, everything was running smoothly. I double check just in case and I noticed that all the wires are labeled 1-4.

The fact that everything worked is what actually made me get overzealous and spray an entire can of carb cleaner into the throttle body.


I have two cans of carb cleaner, I'm heading out to the car. Please, please, wish me luck.

-Derek
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Old 12-05-2005, 05:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

You could have flooded it. Floor the gas and crank her for 10-15 seconds.

The 1/2" round hole at the bottom of the throttle body is where the idle air bypass air goes, if you filled that with muck the car won't idle on its own. If it will run with your foot lightly on the gas you need to specifically clear this small hole out.

The SES is/should be a normal condition for key on, engine not running.
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Old 12-05-2005, 05:55 AM   #7
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

I'm assuming you got some sleep & things have settled down some since your first post. You certainly haven't "killed" your Saturn. As Razorback said, you just need to finish cleaning the TB. You have lossened all the crud that built up over the years & it just has to be cleaned off the rest of the body. Take off the IAS (the pointy thing with a spring looking thing) & spray that clean. Clean out the little air intake port under where that fits. Clean off the underside of the butterfly with some more TB cleaner & a toothbrush. You may also need to remove & clean the EGR, as sometimes crud can travel to there after a TB cleaning. You may have used enough cleaner to partially/temporarily coat the O2-but that should burn off once you get it started. Also, as was suggested, you probably just flooded the engine-so try starting it with your pedal floored for a few turns.
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Old 12-05-2005, 06:00 AM   #8
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derekleu
The fact that everything worked is what actually made me get overzealous and spray an entire can of carb cleaner into the throttle body.
Holy crap! The other guys are right. You're probably flooded.
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Old 12-05-2005, 06:34 AM   #9
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

Ok, I removed the TB and cleaned it out, it is spotless.

I tried starting the car again a few times, at last, in a huge could of smoke, the car started.

It does not stop spewing light smoke, and the enginge now makes knocking sounds it previously did not.

I have a 1.7 meg video of the engine and sounds it makes, how can I post it?

The engine honestly sounds terrible, I just hope its clearing its throat.

-Derek
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Old 12-05-2005, 06:59 AM   #10
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

For some reason the board thinks we are in the middle of the night-thus my earlier comment on getting sleep. Anyway, the engine is PROBABLY burning off all the carb cleaner so is running ruff for now. Once more (not to be rude, just for my clarification) you did replace wires into 4-3-2-1 sparkplug order, right? There is an outside chance you may have contaminated the O2, as some sprays aren't really O2 friendly. They usually are ok, unless they state "not for throttle body cleaning" or something like that.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:11 AM   #11
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

http://media.putfile.com/99-Saturn-S...leaner-fiasco-

Link to the movie of the sounds my car is now making.

The first spray I used said not recommended for fuel injection systems ( I saw that afterwards, thats what I get for trusting the ******* at pep boys).

The other two I used were fuel injector friendly.

So, what did I kill by using the non fuel injector friendly spray, and how to do fix it. I only have 50 minutes before Pep Boys closes, and I need this car for a 100 mile run tomorrow....

Damn it.

(Thanks for all the support, I would seriously be in trouble if it wasn't for your help guys.)
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:25 AM   #12
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

worst case scenario you hydrolocked your motor.

That is to say, an intake valve was open and a bunch of spray got in there then when you turned it over it didn't compress and might have bent something.

Try letting the car run for like half an hour, till the rad fan comes on, because it could need clearing out.

As others said, triple check your plug wire order too.

Not-for-FI-systems cleaner is just worse for the teflon in the intake manifold of some FI cars. It's not a direct cause of the knocking or not starting.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:29 AM   #13
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derekleu
http://media.putfile.com/99-Saturn-S...leaner-fiasco-

Link to the movie of the sounds my car is now making.

The first spray I used said not recommended for fuel injection systems ( I saw that afterwards, thats what I get for trusting the ******* at pep boys).

The other two I used were fuel injector friendly.

So, what did I kill by using the non fuel injector friendly spray, and how to do fix it. I only have 50 minutes before Pep Boys closes, and I need this car for a 100 mile run tomorrow....

Damn it.

(Thanks for all the support, I would seriously be in trouble if it wasn't for your help guys.)
Like Dan said, it may just burn off after a bit, or something may have broken free and contaminated a part of the engine downstream.

It might be worthwhile to pull the plugs and check the electrodes to verify that they are still clean. Blow away any contaminants that might have filled the gap or body of the plug around the electrode.

It might be a good idea to also pull the EGR and see if the pintle port is blocked. There are instructions on the board for cleaning the EGR. Very simple to do, and it can be done with the same carb cleaner and toothbrush you used to clean the throttle body.

I doubt there is much you can do with the O2 sensor now that the auto parts store is closed, so your best bet is to try the above, and start putting in place contingency plans for tomorrow's trip in case that doesn't work.

FWIW, the Service Wrench light is more serious than the Service Engine Soon (SES) light, because it indicates problems like misfire conditions that can be doing damage to your car if not addressed promptly (e.g., killing the catalyst in the catalytic converter) rather than simple emissions problems.

PS - If you have access to a code reader, you should be able to pull the diagnostic trouble code(s) that will indicate the root cause of the problem.

Last edited by Razorbak; 12-05-2005 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:42 AM   #14
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

I cannot seem to find any threads regarding EGR cleaning. Can anyone point the way?

I just gave the car a 3 mile power test, the engine is working fine as far as power and stability, though it is smoking like a mother.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:48 AM   #15
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derekleu
I cannot seem to find any threads regarding EGR cleaning. Can anyone point the way?

I just gave the car a 3 mile power test, the engine is working fine as far as power and stability, though it is smoking like a mother.
FYI, you should be following Skyekatt's thread. She and her husband are also doing a throttle body cleaning today, and they are experiencing similar problems to what you are experiencing...

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?p=722088

There is an EGR cleaning thread with photos in the How To Library forum...

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60814

Wolfman also has some very helpful labelled photos in his photo gallery.

ONCE AGAIN, PULL THE PLUGS, CHECK THE ELECTRODES, AND VERIFY THE ORDER OF THE WIRES UPON REINSTALLATION.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:55 AM   #16
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

Glad to hear you have no drivability issues. The smoking should go away as soon as the cleaner is burned off. Here is a link I found for cleaning EGR:
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...t=cleaning+egr
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Old 12-05-2005, 08:21 AM   #17
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

I may have missed it, but I didn't see anything else mentioned about the knocking sound. Check the tightness of your spark plugs. They will know at idle if they aren't tight enough. (I know from experience ) You could also feel the knocking in the boot of the spark plug wire. So you might try putting your hand on the boot at idle to see what plugs it may be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derekleu
Ok, I removed the TB and cleaned it out, it is spotless.

I tried starting the car again a few times, at last, in a huge could of smoke, the car started.

It does not stop spewing light smoke, and the enginge now makes knocking sounds it previously did not.

I have a 1.7 meg video of the engine and sounds it makes, how can I post it?

The engine honestly sounds terrible, I just hope its clearing its throat.

-Derek
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Old 12-05-2005, 08:46 AM   #18
Derekleu
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

All good stuff guys, I am seriously in your debt. I I have taken many many digital pictures today, so I hope to put them all to good use once this is over with.

News: I found and cleaned the EGR valve. The conduits leading to the valve were almost completely clogged with carbon soot. I spent 20 minutes outside with a flourescent flash light cleaning the ducts and valve with q-tips and carb cleaner.

Good news is the car started after the EGR clean, the knocking is still present, but I have not let the engine clear its throught since.

I have come to the "conclusion" that my initial carb cleansing actually transported all the carbon soot down into the engine. So, the question would really be, how can I possibly clean the entire journey from intake to exhaust of carbon?

Spark plugs: I actually went out and bought a torque wrench for the plugs, they are all at about 24lbs, as the Haynes manual recommends. And yes, the plug wires are all in order, I have quadruple checked them (the wires come pre-printed with numbers on them.) Also, the engine was running perfectly peachy before the carb clean. I will try placing my hands next to each plug to see if I can pin one down as a culprit though.

Note: No SES or Service lights as of yet.

I do not know what to do next.

Oh, and again, I cannot possibly express how grateful I am to your attention and assistance, it might not be a big deal to you, but every comment has been incredibly helpful to me.

-Derek
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Old 12-05-2005, 08:46 AM   #19
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

Hey, isn't the order in which spark plug wires go into the coils 4-1-2-3 instead of 4-3-2-1?
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Old 12-05-2005, 08:48 AM   #20
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Default Re: URGENT: I think I just killed my saturn!

There is a thread in the How-To section about steam cleaning the engine, but you risk hydrolocking your engine if you do not do it correctly.
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