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Old 07-29-2021, 04:45 PM   #661
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Perfectly good Broken bolts, that break from excess torque, don't need a bolt extractor tool. They will spin out of the hole easily.
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Old 07-29-2021, 10:53 PM   #662
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Wrench Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

I am on belt install #2 since last post. I have "re-timed" cam #1 & #2 to align again after removing the camshaft cover.

I have installed the belt and on it's first 720 rotation cam #1 slid again.

I have since; took it off; restarted and followed the FSM 100% exactly the way to install the belt and the idlers + tensioner resulting in the same result.

Now; I have pulled the belt off; replaced the new tensioner + idler w/ it's original friends w/ the other original idler. (back to original tensioner + 2 x idlers).

I will let everyone know how it goes when I get this achieved.

I have a feeling it's going to fail again, meaning it must have something to do with the cam sprockets. Once I know for certain that all these other remedy attempts are null; then it would have to be the cam sprockets somehow.

If it does remedy; then I will be most shocked at this point.

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Old 07-30-2021, 06:59 PM   #663
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

The old equipment proved 1 thing to me:

Fact: Belt Tracking (is the Gates wording) semi-changed during crank revolutions and adjustments.

I eventually went back to the new equipment w/ that 1 idler using the old one still. Made certain the thick spacer was with the lower idler and the thin spacer on the upper.

Belt tracking continues. The correcting of the belt tracking isn't working.

I have never had patience with puzzles and crossword puzzles. This is much like that to me.

Gates says that belt tracking can lead to belt failure. Turning the engine on would be stupid.

Going to continue to do it over and over. I don't know if I will ever get different results.

Best of luck to anyone trying to do this! I would never do this again.
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Old 07-30-2021, 09:54 PM   #664
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Checkered Flag Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Alright; ended the night with the following.

Before I started cranking on this last belt; I managed to loosen all the idlers and tensioner and pull the belt forward to align everything. I then re-tightened and cranked at least 12 times 720's w/ re-adjustments throughout.

This is the best I have been able to do so far. I'm stumped! I wouldn't mind starting it at this point; I just feel like it's going to rub against the idlers (on the back cover side); and fray. I did check my finger behind the belt and it won't rub on the back cover. That's because of the design it seems because of each idler and tensioner having the cradle. However the cradle probably would fray with enough RPM's and enough cycles. Then eventually the belt snaps? Gates was saying that the belt can melt against the cover. ****ty situation indeed.
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Old 07-30-2021, 11:40 PM   #665
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

The one thing I just thought of; Could I be marking each idler incorrectly? This would for certain change the outcome, wouldn't it? Does anyone have snapshots of their timing belt job so I can compare the markings on the idlers?

This could be a make or break from my experience so far.
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Old 07-31-2021, 12:11 AM   #666
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Idea Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

To compare what I have found on the board here,



Instantly compared to my current here:



Upper idler on another member here shows the hexagon/pentagon is flat on the top.

*my* bottom idler is flat on the top; the pictures displayed on the other members is pointy. (Source post: http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=114197)

This proves 100% my markings are invalid; which very well could prove *why* my timing belt job is wrong everytime I try.

*Tiny bit of hope*

I wish I had a high resolution of a completed successful timing belt job on the 3.0L L81. Anyone want to help me finish this?
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Last edited by BrandonKastning; 07-31-2021 at 12:14 AM. Reason: 100% convinced wrong markings is my problem
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Old 07-31-2021, 12:43 AM   #667
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Both of your idlers looked to setup wrong.

Seriously, take the belt off and rethread it in a CCW direction. Install all locks (crank and cams) before you remove the belt.

Install belt at the crank at TDC and install the plastic wedge at 9PM to lock the belt to the crank sprocket, then move to the 3pm idler and set it as the manual says, then align the Cam 4 then Cam3, then set the 12noon idler as the manual says, then around Cam2 and Cam1, then finally around the tensioner and secure the tensioner. Basically, align the timing marks from the belt to the engine marks. They should be close. Apply slight amount of pressure on the 3pm idler and lock it in to 15lbs, then do the same with the 12noon idler and lastly the tensioner. Remove locks after everything had been tightened to torque specs. Spin engine CW 360 and install ONLY the crank lock, and check timing marks for cam 3 and cam 4, if off, adjust 3pm idler. Don't worry about spinning 720, just do the 360 like I said. Then adjust the 12 noon idler to set cam 2 and cam 1. Spin engine again 360 and lock in crank lock ONLY. Verify all timing marks, adjust as necessary. Don't put the cam locks back in. If timing marks are correct, set belt tensioner to proper preload. Remove crank lock and spin it again and again and again verifying the timing marks at TDC. If correct, you are done!
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Old 07-31-2021, 04:32 PM   #668
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

I'm at a loss at this point. Since I or anyone else isn't there to physically see your work and observe you rotating the crankshaft to see timing marks realign, it's difficult to see any mistakes. Adding to this is your insistence of repeating the same or new snapshots of camshafts and crankshaft locked for what I assume is restarting the entire timing procedure when it's absolutely not needed anymore. Personally, I'm interested in seeing crankshaft at TDC, two pairs of camshafts with timing marks, repeated several times with snapshots each time TDC is set. Nothing else.

It may be better, if no one disagrees, to simply take snapshots after every 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation with a few key snapshots - each pair of camshafts and crankshaft at TDC. Three snapshots per 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation when timing marks are supposed to be in alignment. All of your repetitious snapshots without any clear remarks are distractions. The snapshots with cam and crankshaft locks aren't important as you have repeated them throughout this thread to the point of boring anyone tired of seeing the same images. It's safe to say you're familiar with initial timing belt setup. More importantly, you're not presenting TDC/camshaft timing marks after each 720 degree rotation. Subsequent rotations with TDC reached should have snapshots to show repeating this sequence to allow members to see what changes if any.

As it is, suggestions to take three snapshots per 720 degree crankshaft rotation when TDC aligns timing marks are presented and repeating this sequence again with another three snapshots after another 720 degree rotation of the crankshaft should be repeated with notations noting only each 720 degree rotation in numbered group order.

TDC/three snapshots/notation#1
TDC/three snapshots/notation#2
TDC/three snapshots/notation#3, etc.

Refrain from making remarks as this distracts from anyone viewing each set of snapshots in sequence. Allow everyone to view your work. Perhaps something will be revealed without your remarks interfering with members reviewing snapshots.
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Old 07-31-2021, 05:13 PM   #669
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

fdryer,

I reviewed my marks vs. the FSM and I was off. My apologies; wasn't trying to waste your time.

Below is my most recent Gates belt install. The belt is securely on and snug (each bolt); tensioner set w/ *99% sure correct* idler marks.

I have never had a belt on with this configuration. I circled the old marks vs. the new ones (the new ones are current whiteout) and the old ones are vaguely visible and circled in red.

I have much more slack on CAMS #3 & #4 and I would like a second opinion if possible if you believe turning the crankshaft will still securely keep the belt on for a full 720 revolution.

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Old 07-31-2021, 05:15 PM   #670
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Question Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

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Old 07-31-2021, 06:50 PM   #671
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

The fixation on 720 degrees of rotation is a waste of time. TDC occurs ONCE every 360 degrees. It doesn't matter one bit to be at the beginning of the intake stroke or the beginning of the exhaust stroke. I timed my engine only spinning it 360 degrees and guess what? It works!

Brandon's idlers were completely tensioned in the wrong direction which means the belt slack is being taking up somewhere else. The error is occurring because Brandon starts with installing the belt with CAM1 and CAM2 instead of at the Crank and then 3pm idler and CAM4 and then CAM3. Because he continues to make this mistake he ends up with the same results where the belt is not installed correctly. It is that simple!
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Old 07-31-2021, 07:01 PM   #672
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

This photo indicates the different between a properly setup idler and Brandon's method.

Just look at the angle of the belt from the idler to Cam2 on Brandon's photo. The belt is not installed correctly so naturally it will not track true on the path.
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Old 07-31-2021, 07:33 PM   #673
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Your belt is ridiculously loose because you never setup the idlers correctly! The manual mentions a starting point for the idlers. You have those idlers in the looses possible positions.

Last time... Trust ME. Install locks and remove the belt! Start at the crank, align and install the belt on the crank sprocket, then install the plastic wedge at 9PM, thread the belt around the 3 pm idler (with it set as the manual describes), then around the Cam 4 and 3, then around 12 noon idler and up and over the Cams2 and 1, then around the tensioner. This is all with the cams locks and the crank lock install at TDC. Locks must be installed. Make sure all bolts are tight (idlers and tensioner) remove the cam locks, adjust the cams (Bank 2 first, then BANK1) to set timing on all cams while holding pressure on the cam bolt you are adjusting.

In other words, never loosen anything that can change the timing unless you are physically holding the tension on that adjustment. And, always retighten the bolt to lock the tension in place. Then remove crank lock and rotate the engine 360 degrees and reinstall the crank lock. Check timing on Bank 2, adjust as necessary and rotate again ONLY if you had to adjust the timing. Check timing on Bank 1, adjust as necessary and rotate again ONLY if you had to adjust the timing. Once both banks timing marks are spot on, then adjust the pretension on the tensioner, but don't allow the existing tension to release. The tension must be set on the belt while there are NO locks installed! This is very important. So don't allow the tension to release while you loosen the tensioner bolt to adjust the tension! You need to add to each tension point without out releasing it's already set position. When the tensioner is set, rotate again and verify all timing marks. They will move a bit because any movement on one adjustment always affects all others. You just need to repeat and check over and over again until everything is in tune. IT literally takes at least 12 rotations unless you do the 720 rotation method. IN that case you will drive 6 miles before the timing is done! Just kidding Fdryer!

I seriously want to help you Brandon, but for whatever reason you never listens to me. So far where has the recommendations got you? This will work if you follow my recommendations. I understand it and you don't need to understand it. Just follow my instructions. What do you have to lose?
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Old 07-31-2021, 08:34 PM   #674
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Rj 2000 LS2, are you referencing TDC with crankshaft rotating every 360 degrees or the camshafts every 360 degrees? If referencing crankshaft every 360 degrees, TDC will not occur until 720 degrees of rotation.
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Old 07-31-2021, 09:52 PM   #675
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

BrandonKastning, you're not wasting my time as much as insisting on showing repeated camshafts and crankshaft lock snapshots that isn't necessary at this late stage of your issues.

It's not necessary to show snapshots with locks in place with adjusted idlers. Once the timing belt is on, idlers can be left loose or tightened for the initial setup then remove all locks. The timing belt will not slip or skip teeth and allow adjustments with the entire length of timing belt allowed to travel slightly without harm. Camshaft locks must be removed for adjustments as this allows the belt to move slightly as well as the camshafts attempting to rotate from various valve springs trying to rotate camshafts. The entire length of the timing belt is allowed some travel. When done this way, initial timing setup can be checked by eye then using the cam alignment tool to ensure timing hasn't shifted drastically. At this point with idlers adjusted, belt slack should decrease and removing the crankshaft lock will allow rotating the crankshaft 720 degrees for TDC to align camshaft timing marks for the first unlocked timing check. Take a snapshot of crank TDC and each pair of camshaft timing marks. Timing should be close and the cam alignment tool used to see if timing is off and adjustment of idlers are necessary to bring timing into alignment. At no point are camshaft locks used, only the crankshaft lock to hold the belt in place that holds camshafts in place for idler pulley adjustments. If timing is fine then rotate the crankshaft another 720 degrees for TDC and camshafts timing mark checks. Take another set of snapshots for posting. These snapshots are useful and will show either zero changes or minute changes. The only lock at this time, crankshaft lock at TDC to adjust idlers. No camshaft locks at any time during each 720 degree rotation.

I cannot stress your insistence of showing snapshots of the camshaft locks in place and adjusting idlers as repetitive and not useful for posting. You're preventing the timing belt from self aligning as idler pulleys are adjusted. .

Unfortunately, you're in a negative downward spiral with a lot of self doubts and redoing everything over and over and over in obsession, possibly losing sight of what you're supposed to achieve, timing that doesn't change one tooth. Insisting on showing the same snapshots of locked camshafts with idlers in various positions accomplishes little as you're not allowing the timing belt and camshafts to move freely on their own - the point of rotating the engine thru 720 degrees and checking timing marks and taking snapshots as suggested then repeating another 720 degrees then another round of snapshots without inserting camshaft locks at any time. When repeating this pattern, you should see zero changes in timing. Rotating the engine several times should make you aware that this engine runs the same way under its own power without changing timing despite your doubts.

The only way to see whether you are correct about drastic timing changes is with repeated rotations and snapshots with zero camshaft or crankshaft locks in place after every TDC check. These snapshots are important for showing your doubts about timing or not.
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Old 08-01-2021, 12:17 AM   #676
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

fdryer,

Thank you. I did my best to absorb as much as possible from what you just wrote. Since the last post I have started over again and brought evidence before I go to bed.

I will continue tomorrow and will jack up the car to get the TDC shots; rather than the whole picture with locks not showing any changes that could help me/us finish this.

I am a little confused as I have started fresh with the new marks on the idlers as close as my understanding to the FSM.

What's strange to me is the FSM snapshots of idler marks on Installation Beginning shows the same exact marks as the "initial idler settings"; I included pictures of this also.

It's still the least (no tension); do I just slightly move them to apply *some* tension; when trying to do just a "small" tension on the upper idler; my mark went from 10pm to close to 6pm. After seeing this and how dark it was getting; I decided to call it good and bring the snapshots here.

I will take the tire off. Appreciate it!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
BrandonKastning, you're not wasting my time as much as insisting on showing repeated camshafts and crankshaft lock snapshots that isn't necessary at this late stage of your issues.

It's not necessary to show snapshots with locks in place with adjusted idlers. Once the timing belt is on, idlers can be left loose or tightened for the initial setup then remove all locks. The timing belt will not slip or skip teeth and allow adjustments with the entire length of timing belt allowed to travel slightly without harm. Camshaft locks must be removed for adjustments as this allows the belt to move slightly as well as the camshafts attempting to rotate from various valve springs trying to rotate camshafts. The entire length of the timing belt is allowed some travel. When done this way, initial timing setup can be checked by eye then using the cam alignment tool to ensure timing hasn't shifted drastically. At this point with idlers adjusted, belt slack should decrease and removing the crankshaft lock will allow rotating the crankshaft 720 degrees for TDC to align camshaft timing marks for the first unlocked timing check. Take a snapshot of crank TDC and each pair of camshaft timing marks. Timing should be close and the cam alignment tool used to see if timing is off and adjustment of idlers are necessary to bring timing into alignment. At no point are camshaft locks used, only the crankshaft lock to hold the belt in place that holds camshafts in place for idler pulley adjustments. If timing is fine then rotate the crankshaft another 720 degrees for TDC and camshafts timing mark checks. Take another set of snapshots for posting. These snapshots are useful and will show either zero changes or minute changes. The only lock at this time, crankshaft lock at TDC to adjust idlers. No camshaft locks at any time during each 720 degree rotation.

I cannot stress your insistence of showing snapshots of the camshaft locks in place and adjusting idlers as repetitive and not useful for posting. You're preventing the timing belt from self aligning as idler pulleys are adjusted. .

Unfortunately, you're in a negative downward spiral with a lot of self doubts and redoing everything over and over and over in obsession, possibly losing sight of what you're supposed to achieve, timing that doesn't change one tooth. Insisting on showing the same snapshots of locked camshafts with idlers in various positions accomplishes little as you're not allowing the timing belt and camshafts to move freely on their own - the point of rotating the engine thru 720 degrees and checking timing marks and taking snapshots as suggested then repeating another 720 degrees then another round of snapshots without inserting camshaft locks at any time. When repeating this pattern, you should see zero changes in timing. Rotating the engine several times should make you aware that this engine runs the same way under its own power without changing timing despite your doubts.

The only way to see whether you are correct about drastic timing changes is with repeated rotations and snapshots with zero camshaft or crankshaft locks in place after every TDC check. These snapshots are important for showing your doubts about timing or not.
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Old 08-01-2021, 12:19 AM   #677
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

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Old 08-01-2021, 12:20 AM   #678
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2001 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

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Old 08-01-2021, 12:06 PM   #679
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Default Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Brandon, those photos in the manual are the starting point to initially install the belt, which is not what you are doing. Unless you tighten the idlers... the failure mode will repeat over and over again! You are stuck in a rut! You are allowing the belt to flop any which way. I don't see the plastic wedge in place to lock the belt to the crank pulley. The definition of insanity is to repeat the same actions over and over and expect a different results. Stop the insanity! Remove the belt and start over and install it the way I told you to. This thread will be a novel of meaningless posts unless you take my advice. A timing belt job should only take a matter of hours not months!
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Old 08-01-2021, 02:17 PM   #680
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Thumbs Up Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Timing Belt Kit + Camshaft + Crankshaft Seals

Continuing where I left off last night; I first analyzed the CTS video again. Comparing it to the FSM and what I have done before and what I haven't.

This is what I have discovered so far. His video doesn't show the lower idler settings (so I just set it at it's furthest tension) -- same 11pm I could *never* fully achieve after crankshaft revolutions. (It would always move things).

My original markings *were* correct it seems. These results haven't happened just yet.

When I dialed it in to match the CTS video; my 10PM mark (original) moves to 9PM (just like the CTS video).

After I checked tension on both upper idler and lower. I pulled the cam locks and checked the gauges and it was perfect. What also is spooky is that the cam locks jiggle perfect.

I am about to give it a go and crank this around for the 1st time today.

So the difference between how I did it 20+ times before until last night / today. Is the following:

[Before 1st Crank after Initial Setup]:

Before: (Upper Idler): 10PM
Before: (Lower Idler): *I could barely achieve 10PM+* without keys smashing.

Today: (Upper Idler): 9PM
Today: (Lower Idler): 11PM

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