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-   -   1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196983)

vikasevan 12-29-2013 04:02 AM

1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
Brakes work fine but ABS stays on and I checked 10 amp fuse under the hood.

What else should I check?
is this a common problem for this year and model?

which part is most common to fail? for ABS light to stay on?

Can I continue to drive it with ABS light on or its risky?

fdryer 12-29-2013 03:14 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
1-Its not a "common" problem for any car to have ABS failure. If your brakes work then its safe to continue driving. If you are concerned, remove the ABS fuse; the light should turn OFF - you already lost ABS function and the fuse simply removes power to the ABS electronics that turned on the indicator. You have time to determine how to handle this problem. Removing the ABS fuse does not disable brakes, period.

2-When the ABS light turns on and stays ON it means ABS has detected a fault and automatically disables ABS. This does not mean brake failure. Since you haven't crashed or noticed anything unusual with braking other than the idiot light staying ON, you verified your brakes are operating as designed as they always did before ABS was invented and became a standard with most cars. ABS remains invisible to [U]everyday[/U] braking. You'll never need ABS except in emergency stopping from speeding well above the conditions necessary for safe stopping. And even when ABS is activated, it may not prevent the [U]avoidable[/U] crash.

3-The usual issues with ABS failure are about external wiring to each wheel, damaged wheel reluctors (toothed rings), damaged sensors and broken/bent brackets. The DIY approach to troubleshooting would be crawling under the car to physically examine components. The ABS motor/electronics is well mounted in the engine area and last on the list to check. An ABS reader can tell which wheel is affected and point in the direction of failure.

Almost every driving situation will never require ABS activation. Speeding that results in sliding, lost traction, skidding with or without brakes or locking up brakes are situations when ABS intervenes and takes over braking duties to prevent a wheel from locking up also results in [U] longer[/U] stopping distances unknown to those assuming their ABS enhanced brakes will stop in a shorter distance than regular brakes. All these yahoos find out is the expensive crash damage resulting in ignorance from unfamiliarity with situations when ABS is enabled. Speeding and closing in on another car is reducing the distance between cars when ABS is activated. This doesn't mean ABS will stop any better than regular braking, it just avoids the skidding that would occur. While ABS prevents wheel lock up, it can't do anything about closing speeds between the car out in front and the driver foolishly assuming ABS will stop before crashing into it. The videos demonstrating how much less distance ABS braking uses compared to non ABS brakes are all done in 1)dry conditions and 2)without another moving vehicle in front of the car with ABS that braked [U]before[/U] the car with ABS reacted to braking. This little unknown fact was never fully revealed unless it was buried in all the discussions/forums and not brought up from the insurance industry. A presentation from an impartial news organization or science channel exploring the real world of driving would easily demonstrate the benefit/drawback of ABS and when its effective. It does not excuse anyone from learning how to drive safely and determine what speed is safe for the conditions to stop safely and never use the excuse that ABS will remove the responsibility of safely braking at speed.

vikasevan 12-29-2013 07:21 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
Thanks a lot for detailed response.

I will temporarily remove abs 10 amp red fuse.

I will check all the points you suggested and will get back with you soon.

vikasevan 01-05-2014 02:14 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
Hi...I cheked both 10 amp fuse...(there are two abs fuse under hood box)

they both are ok...

interestingly even if I remove red fuses (10 amp) ...ABS light still remains on...what does it mean? does it give you a hint on where I should check?

and I forgot which one.....but when I remove one of the 10 amp abs fuse service soon light comes on(not check engine light) ....I don't remember whether it was top one of bottom 10 amp red fuse....

fetchitfido 01-05-2014 03:03 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
Without a Tech II scan tool to read the ABS code(s) it's just guess work.

Could be as simple as a wheel sensor gummed up (probably front as the rears are integrated into the hub/bearing) or axle reluctor ring broken (even just 1 tooth, requiring a new axle) or wheel bearing (had a front one go that didn't make the normal noise but allowed enough movement to fubar ABS) or unplugged/broken wires.

vikasevan 01-05-2014 03:34 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
[QUOTE=fetchitfido;2033781]Without a Tech II scan tool to read the ABS code(s) it's just guess work.

Could be as simple as a wheel sensor gummed up (probably front as the rears are integrated into the hub/bearing) or axle reluctor ring broken (even just 1 tooth, requiring a new axle) or wheel bearing (had a front one go that didn't make the normal noise but allowed enough movement to fubar ABS) or unplugged/broken wires.[/QUOTE]

If speed sensors are gummed up...will it give wrong speed on instrument cluster? speed guage on dash is working fine...does it mean that speed sensors are ok?

madpogue 01-05-2014 03:50 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
[QUOTE=vikasevan;2033786]If speed sensors are gummed up...will it give wrong speed on instrument cluster? speed guage on dash is working fine...does it mean that speed sensors are ok?[/QUOTE] No. Speedometer is based on the vehicle speed sensor on the tranny.

Does the ABS light go of while you're sitting parked with the engine running? And then go on when you start moving? That would def. point the finger at a wheel sensor and/or the wiring to one of the wheel sensors.

vikasevan 01-05-2014 03:53 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
[QUOTE=madpogue;2033787]No. Speedometer is based on the vehicle speed sensor on the tranny.

Does the ABS light go of while you're sitting parked with the engine running? And then go on when you start moving? That would def. point the finger at a wheel sensor and/or the wiring to one of the wheel sensors.[/QUOTE]

No ABS light does not go off irrelevant either parked or driving ....even after removal of fuses it does not go off..

fetchitfido 01-05-2014 04:23 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
So it stays on, after starting the engine and you haven't moved yet? To me, that eliminates the wheel sensors (they're only for ABS and TC, the speed sensor is in/on the transmission) as a possibility.

Removing the fuse's would only result in the ABS light coming on because it's not working.
Leaves the ABS control module under the dash and the module that's attached to the master cylinder. If nothing's unplugged/loose going into the one on the MC then I'd take the dash cover off and wiggle the control module & related wiring.

vikasevan 01-05-2014 04:47 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
[QUOTE=fetchitfido;2033798]So it stays on, after starting the engine and you haven't moved yet? To me, that eliminates the wheel sensors (they're only for ABS and TC, the speed sensor is in/on the transmission) as a possibility.

Removing the fuse's would only result in the ABS light coming on because it's not working.
Leaves the ABS control module under the dash and the module that's attached to the master cylinder. If nothing's unplugged/loose going into the one on the MC then I'd take the dash cover off and wiggle the control module & related wiring.[/QUOTE]

Yes it stays on either without moving a single inch(parked) or while moving so you said it eliminates wheel sensors .....but what about speed sensor which is on transmission...any problem with speed sensor (vss) can cause this abs light staying on(I dont think so but making sure).

I will check those two modules and let you know...is it common for these modules to go bad or just wiring related to it?

also what about rear wheel sensors(they are not easy to see or clean) but can those sensors could cause this light to stay on?

fetchitfido 01-05-2014 05:34 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
According to the '98 FSM I have there are nearly 96 codes from the ABS light. You really need to bring it to a GM dealer or some kind of service center with a Tech II or equivalent to have the codes read. After looking at a couple, it's not out of the question for the ABS ECM to have an internal fault or for the ABS modulator under the hood to have a fault.

You can use this guide: [url]http://www.differentracing.com/tech_articles/95-99cluster.html[/url]
To get the cover off, then pull the foam noise barrier out and now you can see the PCM and ABS ECM. The PCM is on the left, the ABS ECM is on the right (both directly in front of the gauge cluster).

vikasevan 01-05-2014 05:49 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
[QUOTE=fetchitfido;2033823]According to the '98 FSM I have there are nearly 96 codes from the ABS light. You really need to bring it to a GM dealer or some kind of service center with a Tech II or equivalent to have the codes read. After looking at a couple, it's not out of the question for the ABS ECM to have an internal fault or for the ABS modulator under the hood to have a fault.

You can use this guide:
To get the cover off, then pull the foam noise barrier out and now you can see the PCM and ABS ECM. The PCM is on the left, the ABS ECM is on the right (both directly in front of the gauge cluster).[/QUOTE]

Thanks for continuous help...
ABS control module under dash and PCM both are integrated in one unit...i.e. if we replace abs controller pcm is also replaced correct?
Blue connector is for ABS and other is for PCM correct?
do you think I should replace abs+pcm controller? under dash?

madpogue 01-05-2014 06:35 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
The ABS controller is separate; it is obviously not an ECM.

fetchitfido 01-05-2014 06:53 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
1 Attachment(s)
[QUOTE=madpogue;2033833]The ABS controller is separate; it is obviously not an ECM.[/QUOTE]
ECM=Electronic Control Module, not Engine Control Module. The problem is, the FSM says the control module is on the brake master cylinder when in reality it's here on my desk.

Mine says part number 21023621; service number 21023371. 5x6" box.

It's not integrated into the PCM, it's the box to the right of the PCM.

madpogue 01-05-2014 07:00 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
ECM = Engine Control Module. That it's electronic is implied. E is to distinguish it from TCM - tranny control module or PCM - powertrain control module.

vikasevan 01-05-2014 07:01 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
[QUOTE=fetchitfido;2033839]ECM=Electronic Control Module, not Engine Control Module.
Mine says ABS Controller on it, part number 21023621; service number 21023371. 5x6" box.

It's not integrated into the PCM, it's the box to the right of the PCM.[/QUOTE]

Ok so my question is..one has to replace whole 5"x6" golden metal box correct?
you can not just replace only abs control module on it correct?
that metal box include ABS control module and power train control module both in it correct?

vikasevan 01-05-2014 07:18 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
Without removing any thing i.e. dash etc...I could read number on that metal box which is 21023715 and I found this part no. of sites like eBay.

Before I order this part or pull from local wrecking yard. Is there anything else I should check?

fetchitfido 01-05-2014 07:26 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
Going by the eBay images, that is the ABS controller. Has nothing to do with the PCM (the larger box to the left of the ABS controller).

Without having the code checked I wouldn't blame any single piece. Any GM Dealer should be able to do it as well as a variability of mechanic shops & College's. It's only the sub $400 code readers/scanners that can't read it.

vikasevan 01-06-2014 12:51 AM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
[QUOTE=fetchitfido;2033847]Going by the eBay images, that is the ABS controller. Has nothing to do with the PCM (the larger box to the left of the ABS controller).

Without having the code checked I wouldn't blame any single piece. Any GM Dealer should be able to do it as well as a variability of mechanic shops & College's. It's only the sub $400 code readers/scanners that can't read it.[/QUOTE]


I have ELM327 ..cheap bluetooth code reader and it does not give abs codes...can you suggest any other code reader which is cheap?

Also...in that metal box there are two wire connectors going in one with blue cap on it and other has is gray ....do you know what are those connectors for? I am thinking one connector is for ABS module and other connector is for?????

Because it has two separate connectors, I don't think that metal box has only abs module in it...I could be of course wrong ..

vikasevan 01-23-2014 08:07 PM

Re: 1998 saturn sc2 ...ABS light stays on
 
Well I could fix it...when I checked the rear wheels those wires were broken/scratched and I used a connectors to connect wires and crimp them and voila...abs light is gone...and traction system is stays active ...that is how normally it should. Thanks every one who tried to help.


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