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-   -   2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Rear Brake Pad Swap (Special Tool Needed) ? (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266666)

Dsaturn 05-31-2020 10:02 AM

Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Rear Brake Pad Swap (Special Tool Needed) ?
 
[QUOTE=BrandonKastning;2346140]Dsaturn,

How could I hurt myself or others with a pad swap? This is completely different from getting air in my brakes (which I understand that as a safety issue) -- bleed the system fully with new fluid - CHECK! (On the list).

But the pad swaps? I don't see the need to slam me against the wall for this one.[/QUOTE]
How did you remove the material, Did it break off? If so you may have damaged the material and the pad could fly apart. That would reduce your braking ability.
I told you before I have close to 50 years experience working on cars. I have seen some back yard blunders that caused major accidents.
You just may slam someone against the wall when you have no brakes.:rolleyes:

BrandonKastning 05-31-2020 11:14 AM

Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Rear Brake Pad Swap (Special Tool Needed) ?
 
5 Attachment(s)
[QUOTE=Dsaturn;2346145]How did you remove the material, Did it break off? If so you may have damaged the material and the pad could fly apart. That would reduce your braking ability.
I told you before I have close to 50 years experience working on cars. I have seen some back yard blunders that caused major accidents.
You just may slam someone against the wall when you have no brakes.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Dsaturn,

I believe you in terms of your 50 years of experience. I can tell you that the bottom part of the drivers side pad was *very* little on the amount that I "rubbed" off trying to fit the pad inside. (Not realizing that it was used so it had less give and more tightness from the calipers).

Maybe a good 10-15 hits before I realized; hey this isn't going to work. Let's try and loosen things up and see if it slides in. Perfect!

Since I read your post. I went outside; spent 1 hour to lift the car up and check my front pads. (In 11/2019) prior to my breakdown I had a local very known mechanic shop in town do a professional "pad swap" as he called it.

Everything went real nice! I wanted to take a look at the work and compare it to my safety issues.

This is what I have determined. I do not believe any parts of the bolts/pistons/etc were ever "replaced". It all looks the same as the rusty look as the rest; including the ones in my back without being able to see inside like that. However; my Monroe brakes in front are the ones he did install. I can see the black metal casing over them as seen in the pictures.

So if this is the case; how come he is in business with a successful shop?

BrandonKastning 05-31-2020 11:15 AM

Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Rear Brake Pad Swap (Special Tool Needed) ?
 
5 Attachment(s)
Front Rear - Gallery #2 (Today Shots)

BrandonKastning 05-31-2020 11:16 AM

Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Rear Brake Pad Swap (Special Tool Needed) ?
 
2 Attachment(s)
Front Rear - Gallery #3 (Today Shots)

w/ Receipt from 11/2019 (Pad Swap) -- Redacted the Shop name for obvious reasons!

Rj 2000 LS2 05-31-2020 12:13 PM

Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Rear Brake Pad Swap (Special Tool Needed) ?
 
The pads should slide in like dropping bread in a toaster. You should NEVER beat on the brake pads to insert or replace a new brake pad. There are simply ways to open the caliper(s) so the new pads "drop in" with plenty of clearance.

First step to any brake maintenance is to remove the brake reservoir cover and leave it off during the project. If the fluid it completely full and you have bad brake shoes you plan to replace with new... you will need to remove some brake fluid from the reservoir in order to push the piston of the calipers back. The fluid must have some where to go. There will be less fluid needed when the pads are new vs when the pads are worn out. Once you remove some brake fluid from the system, then removed the old brake pad/shoes (whatever you want to call them), then use a large c-clamp with one of the old brake pads pressing against the piston and gently push the piston back into the caliper while pausing to make sure the brake fluid is not cresting the brake reservoir. When the piston is fully seated the new pads will drop in like bread in a toaster.

Brandon, your method consists of beating the new brake pads into submission until they fit. Can you see the difference? There is a definite difference which will result in reliable braking vs holy crap incident on the road. This is a safety issue as others have mentioned.

FYI Brakes work because hydraulic fluid does not compress. When you apply the pressure to the brake pedal... the immediate force is applied to the calipers via hydraulic pressure with assist. Any air in the brake lines will impede the force as the air compresses first. If you damage a pad, it will wear out extremely fast and could completely break off the brake pad metal face. If the friction material breaks off the metal of the brake shoe... all kinds of unpredictable events could happen. If you are driving at high speeds and a single brake shoe breaks apart... it could lock up that wheel. Have you ever ridden on a Tilt a Whorl? Imagine riding a Tilt a Whorl on a highway! It only takes one wheel to lock up to send you off the road or spinning doughnuts especially on wet or icy pavement. The key factor to properly working brakes is that all four wheels apply the brake identically. If any one wheel is braking differently than the other three... a whole world of unpredictable handling will result.

lrbraner 05-31-2020 01:40 PM

Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Rear Brake Pad Swap (Special Tool Needed) ?
 
Brandon, an FYI; The guy must not be very "Professional " ,the outer pads are installed on the wrong side of the car. The wear sensor should be on the lower side of the caliper.

BrandonKastning 05-31-2020 01:44 PM

Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Rear Brake Pad Swap (Special Tool Needed) ?
 
[QUOTE=lrbraner;2346163]Brandon, an FYI; The guy must not be very "Professional " ,the outer pads are installed on the wrong side of the car. The wear sensor should be on the lower side of the caliper.[/QUOTE]

lbraner,

Thanks for the heads up on that. So the shop screwed up my pad swaps on the front? Is that why the clip on the right is upwards?

Let me guess... this shop could have killed me or someone else. Another "Safety issue" on a DIY Saturn TECH forum.

Seriously!!!

The wear sensor huh... I'll check into it. Thanks for the info. I am getting tired of the trolls on this board. I am sure you can determine who I am referring to.

pierrot 05-31-2020 02:58 PM

Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Rear Brake Pad Swap (Special Tool Needed) ?
 
[QUOTE=BrandonKastning;2346139]pierrot,

Yes, I am referring to the friction material. The very bottom wouldn't go in. So when I was whacking it to get it to go in and it kept bouncing out. It took me a while to figure out I wasn't going to fit it.[/QUOTE][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]Why did you not ask yourself, "what is blocking the path of the pad to be dropped in place?" Did you read your repair manuals? If yes, then you noticed that there was no description of a situation like yours. Now, why would that be? Because the writers of the manual expect the mechanic to understand how to perform this installation, how the brake system functions, and that if an installation is not going as described in the manual that there is a cause for it. [U]Such a cause must be found and corrected [B][COLOR="Red"]before[/COLOR][/B] continuing with the installation process[/U].

[QUOTE=BrandonKastning;2346139]So I loosened the calipers (the correct bolts this time) in order to get enough extra wiggle room to drive the pad in.[/QUOTE]Unfortunately, due to ignorance you chose a work around instead of finding the correct answer to your issue. The correction was to collapse the pistons fully back into their bores. [U]With regard to the spring, did you make the correction referred to by [B][I][COLOR="Blue"]lrbraner[/COLOR][/I][/B] in post #60[/U]?

[QUOTE=BrandonKastning;2346139]Regarding the "pistons"... I am guessing those are the metal "rods" that I drove out with a hammer + nail + mallet?If so; yes they drove in quite nice. And when I put the metal spring back in; the tension was very good. They aren't moving; I tell ya that![/QUOTE]

I appreciate the honesty of the whole response from post #57 as it is very helpful. However, as a former mechanic it is extremely worrisome. You were totally unaware of what parts make up the caliper and simply guessed at what that item was. Apart from the removal and installation of the [B][U][COLOR="blud"]brake pad retaining pins[/COLOR][/U][/B] (what you thought were a [B][U][COLOR="Indigo"]pistons[/COLOR][/U][/B] :eek::eek:), no mention of the use of a hammer is made within the repair manuals. It is clearly [B][I][U]missing[/U][/I][/B] when setting the brake pads in place.

([I]BTW, I had a situation arise when a set of Wagner rear pads were purchased for my car and the material was too thick! I was able to determine the correct thickness by checking info available at RockAuto.com and my factory manual. I later exchanged them for a set of Bosch pads which had the correct thickness of friction material.[/I])

By using the mallet to drive the brake pad down in place you could easily have damaged the piston and perhaps even the outer seal (or "boot" - a damaged seal will eventually result in a brake fluid leak). The piston material is a very hard resin (phenolic) which is quite resilient but nevertheless can be broken, or chipped when pounded against. It will compromise the performance of the caliper to push on the pad towards the rotor. If you have a caliper which is not working at normal efficiency you have a serious braking problem that is not limited merely to your car, but to other drivers on the road with you in an unforeseen emergency situation. These unknown drivers also deserve your consideration in this instance. It is a significant matter which you must take very seriously.

[B][I]Lastly, I don't know if what you did actually caused any damage to the piston or the seal. It is a deep concern to me at this time[/I][/B].

The article linked below is very useful in explaining some things referred to in this thread reply.

[URL="http://www.safebraking.com/tech-why-are-some-brake-caliper-pistons-phenolic-plastic/"]http://www.safebraking.com/tech-why-are-some-brake-caliper-pistons-phenolic-plastic/[/URL]

[QUOTE=BrandonKastning;2346126]Good to know regarding the disc brakes. [B]I will take my chances![/B][/QUOTE]You will take your chances...what about others on the road with you who aren't "taking their chances?" Do you think so little of others on the road with you? [B][I][COLOR="Blue"]BrandonKastning[/COLOR][/I][/B], I believe you are taking far too many risks with this repair. I suspect that you think too highly of your ability to understand things you've had no experience with and simply expect all will work out okay. Thankfully, there are folks here helping to guide you and correct errors. Nevertheless, you may be succumbing to some arrogance in this by taking things for granted.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Rj 2000 LS2 05-31-2020 09:06 PM

Re: 2001 Saturn L300 - v6 3.0 Liter - Rear Brake Pad Swap (Special Tool Needed) ?
 
Simply put, a hammer should only be properly used on a nail. It makes no difference what material the hammer is made of! Just to clarify!

Whacking on a cast iron parts will result in unforeseen circumstances. Be smart and don't be a risk to others on the road. All us DIYer's try our best to be safe. Maybe more so than a standard shop because we don't leave good enough alone. Be safe/considerate and do whatever is necessary to be save and not put others in harm way.


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