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-   -   High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story... (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238597)

lrbraner 01-23-2020 09:34 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
[QUOTE=Dsaturn;2340737]Never used one in a Saturn but have had them fail in a Subaru and Chevy. One in Subaru cost me a head gasket because I was miles from anything in AZ and had to drive it home over heating. Will never use one again.[/QUOTE]
Interesting, so they didnt fail in the open position ? They are supposed to lock in the open position if the engine starts overheating. I had one do that when head gasket blew on a 3.1 GM engine. The T-stat was wide open when I
removed it.

Chaz9496 01-23-2020 09:08 PM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here's some pics of my gauge today. Sitting at idle for 15 min. while I was on lunch at work is the high one, and driving about 10 min is the lower temp. Ambient outside temp is 31. As I stated before, this started 3 months after replacing the Duralast T- Stat. I just wonder if the Heater Core's clogged. This has never happened with this different engine before. I guess i'm still not understanding the replies the senior members have been explaining on what could be going on here. Remember, the fans are disconnected due to them being always on while the engine's running. Sorry, for some reason the High Temperature reading keeps failing and won't upload. Anyway, it's almost on 3/4 of the way up. The coolant tank's full and when I last saw the Heater Core in 2015 it showed 2005 on the date on the side. It appears it was changed 15 years ago or so.

lrbraner 01-23-2020 10:24 PM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
Since the cost is low I would suggest replacing the T-stat. That would eliminate one cause.

Chaz9496 01-24-2020 09:12 PM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
Just to go thru some codes I pulled today..P0128..PO420..PO533..P1599..UO100. Coolant Temp, O2 Sensor Circuit High, A/C Pressure Switch, Engine Near Stall, Loss Of Powertrain Communication. Since I've had the car there's been 2 new codes show up, the PO128 & PO533. The rest have pretty much been coming back for the 5 years I've had it, even after the codes were cleared. This may be the Fan issue with those 2 codes. It's a little off topic but it may have something to do with the Fans not shutting off. Just thought I'd add the codes as a possible cause. Some wouldn't cause them to run tho. Too add, both Heater Core hoses are hot, so I don't suspect a clog being the problem. I also read in the Coolant Temp code that it doesn't reach normal running temperature in a significant time in colder temperatures. Exactly. The probable causes's are mostly T-Stat or Seal issues or low coolant. The Tank is still full when hot.

Chaz9496 01-29-2020 10:21 PM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
I did find that the coolant level was low and slight air still in the system. A deteriorated rubber gasket on top and bottom sides of the thermostat. For some odd reason there's holes around it and two rubber seals that close them off on top and bottom of the flange that opens. I assume it was letting coolant thru. The Head Gasket wasn't blown, thank God for that as I feared. So far, I have nice Hot Heat again. I also found I was supposedly refilling it incorrectly. Your supposed to jack the front up to get the pressure tank to the highest point while filling, which the Chilton's manual doesn't state that. Hopefully this will hold up the rest of the season. Now I have to figure out why the A/C Compressor is out again. This A/C system is beginning to be a big pain in the Butt for me for the past 5 years. Every year it quits working. I'll never understand it. I've never had a car do that, when it worked anyway.

pierrot 05-01-2020 08:05 PM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
[FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]I had my car smog checked yesterday and, no, the P0507 issue has not been resolved. I was concerned that it might not pass since there was a stored DTC although the SES warning lamp was off. The mechanic said it was a history code and believed that it would pass in all likelihood. In short, he was right. The smog test was successful just all others had been to date.

He was surprised when he looked at the odometer and saw the 331,000+ miles on the vehicle. The car continues to run well in spite of the fact that there are still occasional flare ups of the high engine idle. (Some day it will be corrected. :|) My [U]highway mileage[/U] during the "shelter-in-place" order and business closures has topped 35 MPG - and the car is 20 years old![/SIZE][/FONT]

pierrot 10-25-2020 10:06 PM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
[FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]A few days ago those classic symptoms reappeared - high engine idle and high fan speeds - and it was, as you might expect, annoying. :( FWIW, I'm going to replace the donor FCM currently on the car with the factory installed unit and see what happens. My hunch is that nothing will change, but I don't expect it will do any harm. Minimally, it will either confirm or eliminate that part as a source for the problem I'm having.

I will keep y'all posted! :yes:[/SIZE][/FONT]

02 LW300 10-26-2020 09:55 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
Iíll read through this again tonight, I have the high fan issue and it was the thermostat. But I Have not had the high idle part. Off to work now.

02 LW300 10-26-2020 11:17 PM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
The P0507 is strictly a high idle speed code.

I just went through this with my 454 1995 Chevy shop truck. My old truck only sets two digit codes so that is how I missed it.

What I had was that the stepper motor could not control the idle speed. I replaced the stepper motor first based on the code but without proper diagnosis. I had to connect a data scanner to see what was really the issue.

The stepper motor was closing the bypass port as much as it could and the idle was still too high when the truck was all the way warmed up in the middle of summer.

I had to remove the cap over the throttle plate adjustment screw. This is an extremely tough hardened steel cap. I had to cut it with a cut off wheel no drill would touch it. I was able to close the throttle plate enough to get the stepper into middle of its control range.

pierrot 10-27-2020 12:33 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
[FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]Hmm...what would be the equivalent of a "stepper motor" from the Chevy Pick up to something on an L-Series car with a 2.2L ECOTEC engine? Would it be the IAC valve? The only other major influencing part on the throttle body is the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS).

Parts I've replaced which might have, [B][I][COLOR="blud"]but did not correct[/COLOR][/I][/B] this issue are...

1) thermostat (with gasket); 2) temperature senor (the old one broke and it's probably because I inadvertantly struck it during another repair); 3) Idle Air Control Valve (IAC) including a full cleaning of the throttle body; 4) Air Charge Temperature Sensor. [/SIZE][/FONT]

02 LW300 10-27-2020 12:44 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
Iac cannot control the idle speed. Can your code reader give you any readings on the iac position? If it is closing off the idle air bypass port Like it should and there are no vacuum leaks then the throttle plate is letting too much air by. I think 300,000 plus miles things might wear a little. There is a screw probably under a cap that will adjust the throttle plate. I would close the plate some but not enough to get sticky, and see if the idle control will actually work again. You might need to adjust the throttle position sensor also, but I can check. Some readjust with each key cycle.

pierrot 10-27-2020 02:03 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
[QUOTE=02 LW300;2352744]Iac cannot control the idle speed. Can your code reader give you any readings on the iac position?[/QUOTE][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]I can't say with certainty, but I wouldn't expect that it does. It's an [B][I][COLOR="blud"]Innova 3030f[/COLOR][/I][/B], not a very high end reader at all although I do like it.

[QUOTE=02 LW300;2352744]If it is closing off the idle air bypass port Like it should and there are no vacuum leaks then the throttle plate is letting too much air by. I think 300,000 plus miles things might wear a little. There is a screw probably under a cap that will adjust the throttle plate. I would close the plate some but not enough to get sticky, and see if the idle control will actually work again. You might need to adjust the throttle position sensor also, but I can check. Some readjust with each key cycle.[/QUOTE]I'll be on the look out for an adjustment of the throttle plate. I don't recall seeing anything like that when the throttle body was removed from the intake manifold, but since I wasn't looking for that it could easily have been missed. The other thing about this is just how intermittently the event arises. However, the idea that it may have something to do with the throttle plate has some merit as I see it. More often than not, this problem has occurred after very cold overnight temps. During more average overnight temps this was less common to nil. From about mid-April until last week there had been no irregularities whatsoever. Perhaps the cold temperatures caused some contraction in the metal and allowed for more air to pass by the plate. For the time being, it's just conjecture on my part. We'll see as we go along.[/SIZE][/FONT]

fdryer 10-27-2020 10:30 PM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
I think you can determine operating temperatures by creating an artificial error - disconnecting a sensor triggering the OBD II self diagnostics into capturing data. Choose a readily accessible sensor, have the engine fully warmed and disconnect a sensor. The check engine light should turn on and capture freeze frame data including coolant temps. Since you know which sensor (tps, iacv, map, etc) is disconnected, the error code should display the appropriate sensor error code. Download this captured data and see what coolant temps are. Reconnect the sensor and either let the OBD II system reset the check engine light or manually reset the error.

pierrot 10-29-2020 03:42 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
[FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]Ah, [B][I][COLOR="Navy"]fdryer[/COLOR][/I][/B], what a fine idea. The logic seems quite reasonable and the effort to attempt it is minimal. I like it! Thank you, my friend!! :yes:[/SIZE][/FONT]

pierrot 01-11-2022 02:30 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
[FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]Believe it or not, I hadn't tried to correct this problem for a very long time. As this issue once again made an appearance in my car during our colder season, I came up with a "work-around" for the extended time of the high curb idle: I'd turned off the engine while waiting for a traffic signal light to change from red to green, and would restart it before I had to move forward. Once the engine idle reaches ~750 RPM the issue is basically over until the next severe cold temp start-up. As for a repair, I've not tried anything other than what I'm about to discuss next.

Last month I visited a Pick Your Part wrecking yard near me and acquired a replacement throttle body from a 2003 L200 with the TPS and IACV attached. I wasn't charged anything extra for the those items, only for the throttle body. I cleaned the replacement throttle body and swapped out the IACV from my unit to the replacement and installed it. (FWIW, the base gasket was also replaced.) Unfortunately, this did not correct the problem although there was some improvement with acceleration. I believe that was due the presence of a "younger," less used TPS on this throttle body. What little this suggests to me is that the problem does not appear to be related to the throttle body. I'm almost tempted to go ahead and replace the TPS to see what will happen.[/SIZE][/FONT]

jzchen 02-02-2022 08:52 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
[QUOTE=pierrot;2368856][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]Believe it or not, I hadn't tried to correct this problem for a very long time. As this issue once again made an appearance in my car during our colder season, I came up with a "work-around" for the extended time of the high curb idle: I'd turned off the engine while waiting for a traffic signal light to change from red to green, and would restart it before I had to move forward. Once the engine idle reaches ~750 RPM the issue is basically over until the next severe cold temp start-up. As for a repair, I've not tried anything other than what I'm about to discuss next.

Last month I visited a Pick Your Part wrecking yard near me and acquired a replacement throttle body from a 2003 L200 with the TPS and IACV attached. I wasn't charged anything extra for the those items, only for the throttle body. I cleaned the replacement throttle body and swapped out the IACV from my unit to the replacement and installed it. (FWIW, the base gasket was also replaced.)[/QUOTE]

So to follow up (as I just read through all your posts:
IACV is new-ish
Fans- fans are still blowing high when the P0507 shows up? Coolant temp is 100+ in the freeze frame data....

I have a code reader/scanner you can borrow right now not GM enabled but OBDII should read this?....

pierrot 02-03-2022 04:58 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
[FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]Well...silly me. [COLOR="DarkRed"][I]I thought that I'd swapped the IACV from my original throttle body to the one from the donor car, but I did not[/I][/COLOR]. I'm rather irritated with myself as I can't remember where I placed the original throttle body. [B][I][COLOR="Navy"]There is, however, a new AC Delco TPS on the donor throttle body[/COLOR][/I][/B]. While the problem still exists, the engine is able to idle more quickly to a lower rpm, but not fast enough to prevent the PCM from sending a command to turn on the fan. There have been some other performance improvements, but I will save that information for a later time. Meanwhile, this has led me to believe that I may be closer to finding an answer to my problem.

I don't know what the coolant temp is in degrees when the pusher fan (on condenser) engages at high speed. Interestingly, the puller fan (radiator fan) remains off. [I][COLOR="Navy"]I'd previously believed that both fans were engaging, but had never taken the time to view it with the vehicle parked at an idle. For the first time several weeks ago I actually observed the fan operation when this system error occurred again. [/COLOR][/I][B][COLOR="Blud"]So what I'd stated earlier was incorrect on that point.[/COLOR][/B]

The temperature gauge is almost always above the first hash mark to the right - 1/4 - when the fan engages. I need to find the original throttle body so I can install the IACV from that unit onto the one currently in use. Perhaps a "young" IACV operating in tandem with a new TPS would yield more improvement. At this time, I'm satisfied that the current temperature sensor is functioning correctly as the movement of the gauge seams to behave as it always had.

It's good to hear from you JZ![/SIZE][/FONT]

02 LW300 02-03-2022 10:39 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
How fast does your car warm up? My car is blowing hot air in 1/2 mile and up to temp in one mile even on 30 degree days.

jzchen 02-04-2022 03:41 PM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
Hmmm. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the gauges on the Saturn so with "past one mark to the right" I initially thought meant one mark past cold. But anyways either way I'm lost what that means...

But like I noted I can happily lend you a Foxwell NT510 Elite which does data logging. Just let me know. I have a GM vehicle in the household so I could activate/pay for the GM software as well. I don't mind because I can use it myself.

IACVs are a real pain you have to make sure there are no vacuum leaks, and I've read mixed reviews that one can reliably clean them. But you noted you had a new one so I was wondering if you kept it on....

BTW- Good to be back on this forum. I spend a lot of time on TapaTalk but I don't think this forum is supported so I lost track of it! Then it sent me an automated birthday greeting (1 day early), which I found in my inbox which is flooded with advertisements mostly, and tada I'm back!

pierrot 02-07-2022 02:02 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
[QUOTE=02 LW300;2369520]How fast does your car warm up? My car is blowing hot air in 1/2 mile and up to temp in one mile even on 30 degree days.[/QUOTE][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]Engine warm up is reasonably quick and seems very similar to what you've described. While the engine idle speed is dropping more quickly than it had with the old factory installed TPS it is not quickly enough. It may reach ~800 RPM after about three minutes, but that number is still too high. ([I]BTW, that number would be significantly higher if it was with the older TPS.[/I]) If the car is at a standstill long enough and I'm waiting for a traffic signal to change while the engine idles at 800 RPM, then the condenser fan will engage at its highest speed. (Again, the difficulty is that the idle RPM remains too high for too long causing the cooling fan to engage.) After that has happened I sometimes will go through the intersection and quickly find a place to park with the engine on and the transmission in gear. After about a minute or more, the idle RPM usually drops to the "magic number," 750. Once that RPM has been reached for a requisite amount of time the cooling fan will shut off.

[QUOTE=jzchen;2369558]...so with "past one mark to the right" I initially thought meant one mark past cold.[/QUOTE]Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

[QUOTE=jzchen;2369558]But like I noted I can happily lend you a Foxwell NT510 Elite which does data logging. Just let me know. I have a GM vehicle in the household so I could activate/pay for the GM software as well. I don't mind because I can use it myself.[/QUOTE]I appreciate the offer and will keep it in mind![/SIZE][/FONT]

02 LW300 02-07-2022 10:42 AM

Re: High engine fan speed in cold weather...a brief story...
 
I live in the country and when I leave my driveway I accelerate to 45-50 mph. The first stop sign on my commute is 6 miles from home. I come to a complete stop but there is never any traffic so it is a touch and go.

So in reality my car may be behaving the same as yours, I donít know. I have only had the fan stick on high when I had the thermostat fail to maintain temperature. The rubber in the thermostat had come apart, a thermostat and code clear solved the problem for me.


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