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-   -   2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue (http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269246)

vince powers 09-07-2021 04:18 PM

2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
I'm hoping you will be able to give me your expertise. I have a 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe and on the weekend someone tried to steal it. They destroyed the ignition cylinder and I had to break the rest of it out with screwdriver and hammer just to unlock the steering wheel. The RKE has stopped working some time ago so only using key to open doors. I am able to turn over the engine with a screwdriver in the ignition chamber but the car will not start. I assume the passlock security is enabled and the fuel injectors are disabled. The security light comes on but not blinking. I have tried the relearn trick (off to ACC for 10 minutes then off for 10 seconds and repeat 3 times), so many times and it has proven to be useless. The would-be thieves opened the door by prying it back and using a wire to unlock it from the inside. The door chimes ring when I open the door even with no key and in the off position. When I use the lock button when exiting, the locks close and then open again immediately. I have to physically close the locks by hand individually. I have been reading and watching for solutions on youtube and SaturnFans to no avail. Is there any hope to fix this mess myself. Currently all of my expertise mostly comes from Richpin videos :) Please help if you can.

fdryer 09-07-2021 07:04 PM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
In theory (without exceptions), once Passlock security is ON, this usually means Passlock disabled itself to prevent interfering with everyday starting. The only time Passlock disables injectors is when security flashes quickly. There are several Passlock modes; a)off, b)using remote to Lock doors with security blinking once every few seconds/Passlock enabled, c) security indicator flashing quickly, indicating a theft attempt was made/ignition lock cylinder destroyed along with the Passlock sensor detecting lock cylinder rotation with Passlock programming in the bcm sending a disable signal to the pcm to actively disable injector operation, and d)Passlock security indicator always on, indicating Passlock self tests failed and disabled security, allowing starting with zero theft protection. According to your descriptions, you're in mode D - security indicator ON, Passlock disabled. To verify Passlock isn't disabling injectors, remove spark plugs and examine them for fuel.

For whatever reason whether you or the thief destroyed the ignition switch mechanics, the Passlock sensors are probably destroyed too. Three wires make up wiring for the Passlock sensor next to the ignition lock cylinder. Once destroyed, Passlock cannot perform its own self tests every time remotes are used before starting. With the sensors broken, the Passlock program residing in the body control module (bcm) determines Passlock failed and disables itself while turning on the security indicator (always on) to alert the owner that Passlock failed and cannot provide theft protection. You should be able to start and drive.

If in mode D, several starting attempts without the engine firing up can be either a fuel or spark issue. Removing plugs should reveal wet soaked plugs, verifying injectors and fuel pressure. You can check for spark too with plugs removed. After noting firing order, remove coil wires from both ignition coils and have someone start the engine while you observe for spark across both coil towers

vince powers 09-09-2021 05:16 PM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
fdryer, First I want to thank you for the thorough explanation of how the security system works. Search as I might, I could never find a clear answer. So I took your advice and pulled the plugs to inspect them. The plugs were not soaked with gas but they were very blackened with soot. So I bought new plugs and wires and installed them but no change in my crank/no start situation. It seems now that the security light is doing something different now and I'm not sure when that changed. As I noted before, the ignition cylinder is totally missing and I'm using a screwdriver to turn the inner mechanism. First of all, when I unlock the door with the key, the door chimes as soon as I open the drivers door. Normally the key would have to be in the ignition or the lights left on for that to happen. Using the screwdriver, I am able to turn it all the way back to LOCK. Then 1 click forward to ACC. No dash lights at that stage but I do hear a click in from a relay in the passenger side fuse box. I assume it is from the fuel pump relay but I do not hear the pump activate. Then 1 click more to get to the RUN position and all the lights in the dash come on. That is when I can hear the fuel pump activate for a couple of seconds and then the relay clicks and the pump stops humming. When the pump is activating, the security light is on and then goes out when the pump stops humming. When I click forward into the start, I get the crank but no start. When I release it back to the RUN position, the pump hums again and I assume it is powering down like it normally did when I would turn the car off before, and the relay clicks when it stops. The security light also quickly flashes 5 times at that point and then stays on. I don't have a fuel pressure gage but am assuming the sound of the pump is an indicator that I do have pressure. If you have any more insight to what might be happening, it would be most appreciated. Also the door locks are acting strange ... when I use the auto door lock button to lock the doors, the locks close then pop right open again.

fdryer 09-09-2021 08:25 PM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
There may be several problems here. At the least, seeing security blink 5x is unusual. Service manuals are my reference for GMs Passlock program and as accurate as I can describe it if not reprinting parts of it throughput the years here.

Acc(essory) position does not enable fuel pump operation. When the ign switch is turned to the ON/RUN position, this powers up all electronics with the pcm initially going thru its own power-up self tests then sending a fuel signal to the pump relay to run it for several seconds. If the ign switch isn't turned to START, the pcm turns off pump operation. If ign switch is turned to START, the starting circuit is enabled to power up the starter to crank the engine. During starting, the pcm relies on the crank sensor to provide precise timing signals (pulse train) to allow the pcm to turn on fuel pump, initiate timing for spark, and pulse injectors. Under normal everyday situations, the engine starts up and car driven. Damaging the ignition switch/lock cylinder/Passlock sensors presents several issues.

If we can presume Passlock isn't interfering with starting the engine with the security indicator always on, the nexts steps are to test for spark and fuel. Even after replacing the spark plugs and still no start, remove plugs again for two reasons; checking for fuel then checking for spark. Did you try suggestions given previously? Fuel should be injected with raw fuel smell on plugs to verify injector operation. Depressing the fuel test valve on the fuel rail should emit a strong spray of fuel too after ignition is turned on as fuel pressure should remain high whether or not starting occurs. A fuel pressure gauge connected to the test valve should display between 39-50 psi. Test for spark as suggested.

poorboy 09-10-2021 08:55 AM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
[QUOTE=vince powers;2365247] I'm using a screwdriver to turn the inner mechanism. [/QUOTE]

Does the key (the chip in the key) need to be near the ignition to disable the lockout feature?

vince powers 09-10-2021 03:27 PM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
I believe that the key has no chip and that it is in the RKE which hasn't actually worked for quite some time.
I did try keeping key and RKE next to the ignition when I tried the screwdriver start and also when I did the 10 minute relearn ... Nothing worked. There is a new battery in the Remote Key Entry fob

I am willing to try the Passlock Bypass method that involves cutting yellow wire and stripping black wire to jump with a resistor.

I am not 100% sure where to find the wires I need on the 2002 SC1 SOHC.

Near ignition or the BCM

Can anyone tell me for certain where those wires reside?

vince powers 09-10-2021 03:43 PM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
i must admit that when I pulled the plugs and did not see or smell fuel but did see how carboned up they were, i thought that the plugs were fouled and not helping so I changed them to be sure. Since the pump was activating as normal, I also assume that the injectors are shut down due to the security tampering.
I will recruit some help to check the spark

fdryer 09-10-2021 04:24 PM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
There are two procedures about fuel and pressure. 1) the fuel pump can operate to pressurize the field rail for injectors and 2) the pcm operating injectors unrelated to fuel pump operation. Keep these two separate. Just because you can hear the fuel pump running doesn't mean injectors are pulsing. If injectors are operating then plugs should be wet and smell of fuel after one or several starting attempts. The pcm controls fuel pump, spark and injectors in separate circuits. Programming in electronics.

By starting with new plugs (under normal conditions) and failure of the engine to run then removing plugs for inspection, you should be able to see and/or smell raw fuel on them. Either injectors are operating or not. This is one way to test for overall pcm operation as the pcm controls the entire EFI system.

Spark is tested easily. Just remove all spark plug wires from both ignition coils (after noting firing order). Just have someone start while you observe for spark across both coil towers.

These steps are the easiest way to test the EFI system; spark, injectors and pump. No tools needed to perform each test.

vince powers 09-10-2021 11:09 PM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
no fuel smell on removed plugs ...
schrader valve released fuel at high velocity

i am alone so can't look for spark right now but new plugs are already showing black carbon ... feel as if fuel was present then carbon would be burned off

running out of options to get it started

I got your warning about cutting white wire but i think i should at least try

there is a cluster of 3 with a white a black and a red coming out of the ignition chamber
I know you are reluctant but i am at a crossroads here

i will have enough slack to reattach if it fails

what do you think fdryer?

fdryer 09-11-2021 09:38 AM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
By all means, you have nothing to lose at this point to try anything. I'm not sure why new plugs are showing black unless firing order is incorrect when plug wires were removed without regard to where they went. If I'm not mistaken, firing order is 4123; [url]http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111014[/url].

Starting fluid is another way to test for spark and fuel. If spark occurs and starting fluid is sprayed into the throttle body, the engine should fire up for a second or two. No spark with starting fluid would not get the engine running. If the engine starts up on starting fluid, this verifies injectors are disabled.

Three wires near the ign lock cylinder would be for Passlock. A separate single wire somewhere else would be the key in ignition signal to the bcm. If using the RKE to lock with ignition key still in ignition, doors would lock but the driver's door would unlock as a feature against locking the car with keys in ignition switch. This may explain why pressing the door lock switch results in locking and unlocking doors with the bcm incorrectly sensing a key in ignition from the damage. That's my best guess. The same key in ignition sensor triggers the bcm to chime when the driver's door is opened to remind the driver of leaving the ignition key in.

vince powers 09-11-2021 11:54 AM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
I am so grateful that you are here !!
Now the door lock +chime makes perfect sense.

I can double check but at this point I am 100% sure the plug wires are in the correct firing order.

I will have to find some help today for the "spray starter fluid in throttle body test. My wife is too scared to participate but maybe ....

I thought that maybe all the attempts to start with only spark may be the reason for the blackened plug ends.

Its my understanding that after wire is snipped I may have to do a relearn cycle.

Today will be the day of reckoning

Wish me luck

Thanks again fdryer !!

vince powers 09-11-2021 10:07 PM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
SUCCESS !!!!

Cut white wire was a waste of time.

Cut yellow and strip black with a resistor between and fired right up.

Gratitude to fdryer for his patience and guidance and to all the other great people here in the Saturn community !

Together we solved my dilemma and frustration.

I'm sure I'll be back though.

My sc1 is turning 20 next year and if you think the teenagers are a handful ... wait for the Roaring Twenties HAHAHAHA

fdryer 09-12-2021 02:38 PM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
That's all you. I have nothing to do with your solution to this Passlock problem. You found a different answer.

Mind sharing how you found and wired a resistor that allowed bypassing Passlock and allowed normal starting/driving?

vince powers 09-12-2021 07:12 PM

Re: 2002 Saturn SC1 coupe has security issue
 
Finding out the correct wires was not very easy
I researched Saturnfans, Youtube and posted questions on Bing

I found many different answers concerning passlock bypess
But for my particular year, make and model, nothing exactly came up.

Different colored wires and different locations and different year makes and models so I just tried to look for some kind of common denominator.

I did find one site ....

triplew.hiluxmotors.com/how-to-permanently-disable-gm-passlock-system/

.... that had a good explanation of procedure but again, not specific to my situation

That is where you came in.
You knew exactly my year make and model and my situation and you pointed to the 3 wires coming from the ignition specifically.
You explained very clearly the different stages of security light and what was normal and abnormal
You also explained the door chime with no key in the ignition which told me that it really did not have anything to do with the lockout.
You also encouraged me to go through the process of elimination to exclude any other source of spark or fuel problems.

We both agreed I had really nothing to lose if I started cutting wires but cautioned me that it may not be the solution.

After researching for a week I was finally bold enough to cut wires
My colors were solid Yellow, White and Black

I did cut the white but nothing changed.
Spliced them back together and capped them
The website noted above said nothing of a white wire to help anyway.

It did give me a range in resistance but not specific.

I tested the OHMS in the wires as instructed
(cut yellow wire in half making sure both ends could be worked with stripping some insulation from both ends
Then strip NOT CUT some insulation from the black wire)

With a multimeter, I measured the half of the yellow going to the ignition and the black for OHMS)
I could not get a definitive number as it kept bouncing around but the most common range was around 5000

I bought a cheap pack of resistors from Canadian Tire ($14.00) and chose a few different ones to try.
Resister wire goes from the other half of the yellow that goes to the BCM
And to the black
Top half of yellow used to measure resistance is now useless to me and was simply capped off

First I tried a 9100 and all of a sudden the security light started flashing quickly.
Didn't start so i thought maybe I had to do the relearn process. (OFF to RUN with 10 minute intervals 3x)

Nope

So I went to the lowest resister I chose 4700 and security went out and my poor old Saturn fired right up.

That's my story and I hope it helps many others


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