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RedlineWannabe 07-19-2013 10:08 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
[QUOTE=dark7622;1995388]HI Readline,

On the accessory power wire, I simply don't have it hooked up at all since I didn't have a wire to mate it with.

The pink wire in question is an ign wire and it's coming from the block (fuse block).

Someone could make some money selling the TCM and wire harness already done for this conversion LOL.[/QUOTE]

I found the ACC1 wire in the harness going to the BCM and spliced into it.

Pink wire-What connector and what location is it coming from? I can probably help you figure it out. I had a leftover pink in connector 2/position B10. That was what I used for the yellow wire from the trans that did not match up. Where did you put the yellow wire?

I agree on the kit thing. There are so many of these things on Craigslist it isn't funny. I originally measured up for the supercharged 3.8 out of my Bonneville, and the Bonneville wheeltrack is 4" narrower, and there is 4" more between the shock towers!:eek: I'd rather spend time on my classic 60's cars if I had the choice. I just want to finish this and move on and work on something else! I haven't had time to research lately, work will slow down after summer, then I can devote some time to it.

dark7622 07-21-2013 09:36 AM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
I think I might have figured out my not starting car problem.

The TAN and Tan/wh lines, the connector to the TCM has two sets, pin 6, 7 and then 37,38.

I might have these in the wrong order, my wire harness was all cut up when I got to the salvage yard so I don't know and the circuit numbers are the same for both so I took a random chance.

Though I suspect now that they are crossed???

what I have going to 6,7 needs to go to 37,38 and vice versa. It's the only thing I can think of since most of the wires dealing with the transmission shouldn't have anything to do with the car not starting up.


I know one set goes to the ECM directly and I suspect the other set goes to the BCM after flowing though the TCM.

dark7622 07-27-2013 04:47 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
Quick update,

I'm guessing it doesn't matter which order the two LAN lines go in or out of the TCM. Didn't seem to have any effect.

Though now I found the pink ignition wire had no power when the car was turn to on. There is power coming from the block when the key is on, but when it gets to the TCM connector it's dry. Must be a bad wire.

So I ran a temp bypass and got the car to start up for a couple seconds, ran real rough.

I still have the ECM/BCM that came with the car (Saturn Vue 2003) but the TCM is out of a 2005 Saturn Ion.

Any thoughts?

Any details on what to do with the keyword data wire?

jimmie504 07-28-2013 10:43 AM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
Won't work without swapping the ECM . Reason for it is because, LAN lines are highspeed, the ECM in the saturn is only CAN. If you get the TCM for the 4t45 transmission, then the module for the 4t45 only have keyword serial data pin 52 and CAN. Go to autozone, create an account, then click on repair help, 2005 Saturn Ion, wire diagrams. It has every pinout you'll need.
Pins 1 and 22 on the ECU is the LAN Lines connected to pins 25 and 26 of the TCM. Pins 13 and 19 comes from the ECU, bypass the ABS and into the BCM. You will have to fill me in on from what vehicles do you have 1) TCM, ECU and BCM. The transmission type 4t45 or what in order for me to walk you through this. That includes the Starting system.

dark7622 07-28-2013 11:10 AM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
Hi Jimmie

Ok here is what I have so far

1, 4T45E transmission out of an 2005 Malibu
1, TCM from a Saturn Ion 2005
4, connectors (speed sensor, transmission, neutral switch, TCM) since wires was cut at the salvage yard so I had to wire this all together.

The car is a 2003 Saturn Vue AWD (now FWD) with a Ecotech 2.2l engine

I have the pin outs for all the connectors that go to the transmission (Saturn Ion 2005/6), there is no keyword serial coming from the transmission, currently it's coming from the Fuse block with no where to go.

I would also note I have the pin out for the Vue (2003) both say High speed GMLAN (CAN) +- wires. One doesn't say something different then the other, probably because they are both Saturn components just different years??

Also according to the pin out for the TCM connector the LAN lines are on pin 6,7 and 37,38. This totally doesn't match what you have given (25,26 and 13,19) which on my connector some of those (25, 13, 19) are not even used and 26 is the ISS low signal. Maybe the TCM and connectors are different for some other TCM other than a Saturn Ion 2005/6.

The problem with my connector diagram is that it doesn't say what set of LAN lines are for what, So I don't know which one is for connecting the ECU or not, they both read the same.

As far as starting system, well originally the neutral safety switch on the Vue controlled the power going to the solenoid for the engine to start. This meant a thick yellow and purple wire. Now I could probably have altered the connector going to the 2005 Saturn Ion connector (which fits the switch on the 2005 Malibu transmission). Though I opted to go I think a better route, I used the starter control wire from the switch on the connector to a relay and put the Thick yellow/purple wires to that relay. This has worked fine in that the car will crank over (just not stay running).

So yesterday I found I made a mistake, I had the ignition wire from the TCM connector connected to the Ignition wire of the connector that goes to the transmission, hence no power going to the TCM or transmission. I put in a wire (which I had left over (should have been a clue)) though the car still doesn't want to stay running. I assumed it's because maybe I don't have the LAN lines in the right spots but have no documentation as to which set goes to which pins.

I will try switching them today and seeing if that has any effect, though you say there is a difference and the Saturn 2005 TCM won't work with the Saturn Vue 2003 ECM? I saw somewhere where someone said it worked just didn't run great till they had both programed to 2005. Though my case is it's not even running bad, it won't stay running for more then a second.

I had unplugged the transmission and TCM to the same effect, it's like it's had no effect. I assume since the TCM wasn't connecting and passing on the LAN signal.

Let me know, hanging here with a mostly done project besides this issue. Plus like I said the keyword serial wire is coming from the block, nothing on any of the diagrams for the connectors have a Keyword serial wire, so I guess it has nothing to do with the transmission. Where to put it, I don't know.

Thanks for all the help you can provide.

jimmie504 07-28-2013 11:25 AM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
It is mind boggling, but it becomes simple. The Body control module is what no-one wants to deal with, because it interprets the signal, and in order to to get the vue to shift, you will have to have the Engine Control Module from the 05-06 saturn Ion. It controls the solenoids, shift A and B, pressure line, input/output speed, TFT, and Transmission range. 'Here you gonna run into a problem, viz, the throttle body systems. If the module do not contain the TAC, then you will need to find the module. The 4t45 transmission control module only control keyword serial data (used for determine what code is triggered) and the CAN BUS used for sending and receiving information from various modules. Your starting system is linked to this. LAN lines or Brown w/black strip - CAN lines are Brown w/white stripes. Initially on the vue, pins 1 and 2 comes from the BCM and 10 and 11 comes from the ECU. The BCM or brain of the entire system affects the guages, starter and etc. As for the transmission position range sensor, follow the wiring harness, except for the seond yellow wire or ACC1 it has to be connected the neutral safety, because it is a safety mechanism, but you could have just put the truck in neutral and started it.

jimmie504 07-28-2013 11:54 AM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
The car is not turning over because the fues transmission/powertrain fuse is blown

jimmie504 07-28-2013 12:00 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
The CAN data system is slower than the HIGHPSEED LAN. Lan means the local area network, it is faster. It do not need the keyword or Radio Keyword serial data connection.
Also, the ISS and OSS and other solenoids and range sensor will be found on the Engine Control module. The Tan and Tan w/ white wires you say's is coming from the fusebox is actually tied in to the Body control module.

jimmie504 07-28-2013 12:03 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
Get some B12 and clean the throttle body system, and MASS.

jimmie504 07-28-2013 12:17 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
The Saturn Vue ECU will have to be flash to contain data to control the solenoids, line pressure control and etc. The Vue ECU can recieve data from the speed sensor. The Vue ECU and TCM has to work in conjections, but the TCM was to be formatted and wipe clean, then the new operating "stand alone" tcm DATA has to be programmed into. Otherwise, the 4t45-e TCM will not convey data to the ecu for shifting points, because the ecu do not have data for solenoid operations, gear ratio and etc.
Unlike the Vue, the data connections went from ECU to TCM and then to BCM. on the 4t45 it is TCM to ECU, then to BCM. The 3 wires are needed to transfer data, actual 4,counting the stop lamp signal (blue wire), dark brown w/black (radio/keyword serial data), Tan and tan w/white (CAN) or Tan and tan w/black.

jimmie504 07-28-2013 12:32 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
For you to have a greater understanding, go to a wrecking yard and find a 2005 saturn Ion 2, look and take pictures if you like and take a closer look at the ECU and TCM. Suggestion, go to craigslist in Texas - Dallas Forth Worth, search auto parts, then type in 4t45 transmission, and afterwards - transmission control modules. You'll find my posts. I had the transmission, control module and bcm in my 03 saturn vue as a project. Works find. I took it out - replaced it with an af23 transmission and used an af33 transmission countrol module from a 02-saturn vue 3.0, rewiring back in the ECU and BCM. Works fine.
I am taking the guess work out and speculations. I did it. I post on it. I wiped clean the saturn vue 03 TCM and repogrammed it.
The entire operation is "splice - plug n play".

jimmie504 07-28-2013 12:45 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
I hope the information I have given will be helpful in your project. I played with my for almost a year, ran into problems, searched the internet for answers that no one could give. The more I dug deeper, I went to autozone online and found the information I was looking for. I weighed my options by looking at 2.0, 2.2 and 3.0 Saturn vue schematics that dealt with the ecu and tcm. I pieced the puzzle together. But keep searching, you've gained the necessary experience. I now charge 1,500.00 to replace a cvt, using the easy way out, AF23 transmission with Chevy equinox mounts (top and firewall/craddle), alero driver side axle/ cv joint and saturn vue passenger side cv joint and axle, and 2002-03 Saturn Vue 3.0 transmission control module (af33).

jimmie504 07-28-2013 01:00 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
Oh, and the keyword serial data wire is coming from the ecu, it is connection 52 on the 4t45 module.

dark7622 07-28-2013 01:17 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
Hi Jimmie,

I'm guessing I'm confused by terminology being used.

4T45E Module (do you mean the TCM??)

I don't have 52 pins on the TCM I have, I don't have a plug on the transmission with 52 or more pins.

The ONLY keyword data I have right now (regardless of where it came from originally) is coming from the gray block that connects to the fuse block.

None of the connectors on the transmission (which I have all the diagrams) describe at all a keyword data pin.

Thanks for the information on the Vue's TCM (about Pin 1/2 and 10/11) though it doesn't help as to which one on my TCM goes to the ECU (6/7 or 37/38). I went though 8 u-pull-it salvage yards to find just the TCM and connector. I have found Saturn Ions but for some reason everything was gone. The one I got the connectors from (which were all CUT from the main harness) had it's engine missing and the wire harness was all cut off. I just got the pig-tails for each connector.

I went though 3 cities to find it. Amazing, maybe now there are some, but if I can just find out it might save more time, it's the only thing I'm missing. All the information I got on the Ion doesn't show a keyword data line at all. Not disputing it's purpose just wonder why I don't have it.

Though most of what you said would mean to me that it won't shift which is maybe what the problem is for Redlinewannabe, he's got his running but not shifting. I hadn't gotten to his point to even discover that lovely problem yet since it won't stay running beyond a second. So most of what you said at least it should turn on.

I will check the fuses again, I can send you the diagram I got from a fellow here on the forum which seem to match everything I got too btw. I'm guessing you got some other year/model TCM and hence why these pins you point out just don't match anything I have.


jimmie504 07-28-2013 01:26 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
Here is what I need for you to do, because it sound like someone gave you the wrong wiring harness and kinda messed you around. click on this link, [url][/url], then enter your vehicle 2005 saturn Ion. Once that is done, click on repair help, select diagrams, then go to 2005 saturn ion drivetrain. The information is there.

jimmie504 07-28-2013 01:29 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
yes, 4t45 module is the TCM

dark7622 07-28-2013 01:40 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
Others have posted the same thing about this autozone reference you have given.

I have thought maybe I just needed an account so I signed up and all, yet nothing I click on under Repair help shows diagrams. Maybe they removed the feature.

Though I am the one that got the parts together so I know what car they came from I pulled them off myself. The diagrams I have are shop diagrams and they match to the T exactly the connections I have for a Saturn Ion 2005 with a 2.2 engine on a 4T45E transmission. After all the transmission was still there (just the engine missing with all the wires cut along with the TCM).

I will keep clicking around the repair help, but they might have removed it since that was probably a feature they paid for or something.


jimmie504 07-28-2013 01:41 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
send me a picture. because I cannot find nothing with pins 6 and 7 and 37 and 38, even though they are Highspeed connectors [email][/email]

jimmie504 07-28-2013 01:50 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
this diagram is a 2005 saturn Ion 4t45


jimmie504 07-28-2013 01:52 PM

Re: Swapping the VT25E for the 4T45E transmission!
The diagram you given me is for a 2005 Saturn Vue and not a Saturn Ion.

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