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Old 03-10-2007, 07:01 PM   #1
ThePlainsman
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Default What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

The manual says it should be at least 89. So I've been using 89. However, I started to notice some low speed sluggishness appear, even after the tranny update. It wasn't lag; it was sluggishness, like it was driving through tire-deep mud. So I burned fuel down close to empty and filled the tank this time with the expensive stuff--93 Octane.

Improvement came immediately. The "mud" disappeared and I had my post-tranny update Outlook back. Forget that 89 Octane crap. From now on, I'm only filling up with the "good stuff."

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Old 03-10-2007, 07:33 PM   #2
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePlainsman View Post
The manual says it should be at least 89. So I've been using 89. However, I started to notice some low speed sluggishness appear, even after the tranny update. It wasn't lag; it was sluggishness, like it was driving through tire-deep mud. So I burned fuel down close to empty and filled the tank this time with the expensive stuff--93 Octane.

Improvement came immediately. The "mud" disappeared and I had my post-tranny update Outlook back. Forget that 89 Octane crap. From now on, I'm only filling up with the "good stuff."
That's odd. Saturn's website says 87 Octane required. I wonder if you just got a batch of bad gas previous to your 93 octane fill-up?

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Old 03-10-2007, 07:50 PM   #3
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

I saw 85 octane in Denver... The ION I was driving was a slug and gave only 20mpg.

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Old 03-10-2007, 10:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

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Originally Posted by zielinab View Post
That's odd. Saturn's website says 87 Octane required. I wonder if you just got a batch of bad gas previous to your 93 octane fill-up?
Could be, but there was a noticeable different in pick-up.

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Old 03-10-2007, 11:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

87 with no problems (but mileage?)

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Old 03-11-2007, 09:40 AM   #6
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

I have not tried anything other than 87 octane yet. And, on our 1K+ trip this week I got 23.8 MPG and did not have any sluggishness. Oh, I forgot to mention that mine is an XR with AWD. I'm not sure I want to change to 93 octane, even though something inside of me says give it a try. Are there any problems bouncing between the two?

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Old 03-11-2007, 01:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBiz View Post
I have not tried anything other than 87 octane yet. And, on our 1K+ trip this week I got 23.8 MPG and did not have any sluggishness. Oh, I forgot to mention that mine is an XR with AWD. I'm not sure I want to change to 93 octane, even though something inside of me says give it a try. Are there any problems bouncing between the two?
Other than the extra $.20/gal flowing from your wallet for the good stuff, nope!

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Old 03-11-2007, 04:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zielinab View Post
That's odd. Saturn's website says 87 Octane required. I wonder if you just got a batch of bad gas previous to your 93 octane fill-up?
Actually the Outlook Owner's Manual states:
"Use regular unleaded gasoline with a posted octane rating of 87 or higher. For best performance or trailer towing, you could choose to use middle grade 89 octane unleaded gasoline."

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBiz View Post
I have not tried anything other than 87 octane yet. And, on our 1K+ trip this week I got 23.8 MPG and did not have any sluggishness. Oh, I forgot to mention that mine is an XR with AWD. I'm not sure I want to change to 93 octane, even though something inside of me says give it a try. Are there any problems bouncing between the two?
Using a higher grade octane may result in the use of a "high octane" timing table that provides additional ignition advance and may result in improved throttle response and fuel mileage. There's no problem switching or mixing as the system automatically adjusts based on observed knock retard and estimated fuel volatility.
HTH
WopOnTour

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Old 03-11-2007, 05:52 PM   #9
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WopOnTour View Post
Actually the Outlook Owner's Manual states:
"Use regular unleaded gasoline with a posted octane rating of 87 or higher. For best performance or trailer towing, you could choose to use middle grade 89 octane unleaded gasoline."

Using a higher grade octane may result in the use of a "high octane" timing table that provides additional ignition advance and may result in improved throttle response and fuel mileage. There's no problem switching or mixing as the system automatically adjusts based on observed knock retard and estimated fuel volatility.
HTH
WopOnTour
Sooooo....what are the horsepower and torque numbers based on? Low or high-octane? Does it matter? (seems like it would based on your note). I'm not sure how it could work both ways - either the engine develops 275 horse w/ normal gas, or more power w/ better fuel. (Or am I way off-base here...I know in older cars the power was still there regardless of fuel but you would be damaging the engine w/ knock...newer vehicles are able to compensate by retarding the ignition, but at the cost of power. I definitely noticed this on my supercharged Grand Prix - it ran like a champ on 93 octane, crap on anything else.). Will I get better economy and power w/ higher octane fuel in the Acadia (or Outlook)?

I'm proud of the GM "high-feature" 3.6 liter V-6...unlike the 3.5 VQ in a Nissan or the 3.5 in the Acura TL, it's pumping out comparable power without requiring expensive gas (93 octane required is both those vehicles). My Acadia manual is the same as the Saturn (87 is fine, 89+ "suggested" for towing).

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Old 03-11-2007, 08:47 PM   #10
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

We have XR FWD, and have only used 87 octane. I have not noticed any problems. We have 6700 miles on it thus far. Last trip I got 24.1mpg on highway doing 75mph.

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Old 03-11-2007, 09:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

I read somewhere once that while higher octane gas will get you more horsepower, it will also get you less MPG, and that lower octane will often give you the best MPG. I found that to be the case with the past four SUVs that I've had - two Mercs, an Acura MDX, and Volvo XC 90. They all called for 91 octane, but I normally just used regular 87. My MPG was always higher than sticker estimate, and when I had to use a higher octane I found the MPG did indeed go down. I put over 100,000 miles on nearly all of these vehicles (160,000 on one of the Mercs) and never had any sort of engine issues, and they all seemed to perform just fine to me out on the road, even when loaded down (I'm not a hot rodder though). So I was actually a little disappointed to see that when my new Outlook arrives in a few weeks from the factory I won't be able to use a lower octane fuel since it already takes regular!

The fact the Outlooks only need 87 octane is a feature I have not seen advertised much - really a big savings in the long haul vs. most of the rest that require 91 (unless you have always cheated like me)...

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Old 03-11-2007, 09:06 PM   #12
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

all i've ever heard about higher octane was that it burns hotter and that's it. i've always heard that using higher octane is bad in the long run and doesn't improve performance...
but i'll be willing to give it a shot...maybe once gas goes down...it raised 40cents in the last week!!
btw, it'll be in my SC2, so it's a little different...

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Old 03-11-2007, 09:19 PM   #13
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrocco001 View Post
Sooooo....what are the horsepower and torque numbers based on? Low or high-octane? Does it matter? (seems like it would based on your note). I'm not sure how it could work both ways - either the engine develops 275 horse w/ normal gas, or more power w/ better fuel. (Or am I way off-base here...I know in older cars the power was still there regardless of fuel but you would be damaging the engine w/ knock...newer vehicles are able to compensate by retarding the ignition, but at the cost of power. I definitely noticed this on my supercharged Grand Prix - it ran like a champ on 93 octane, crap on anything else.). Will I get better economy and power w/ higher octane fuel in the Acadia (or Outlook)?

I'm proud of the GM "high-feature" 3.6 liter V-6...unlike the 3.5 VQ in a Nissan or the 3.5 in the Acura TL, it's pumping out comparable power without requiring expensive gas (93 octane required is both those vehicles). My Acadia manual is the same as the Saturn (87 is fine, 89+ "suggested" for towing).
http://www.sae.org/technical/standards/CPGM1_07LY7DUAL

The specifics of the fuel used for the GM LAMBDA can be found in this document. The fuel used will be from a Top Tier commercial source that specifically complies with new SAE J1349 standard which initated a much needed return to OEM honesty in the documentation supporting officially published HP/TQ numbers.

Using AT LEAST the fuel recommended in your owner's manual will provide the commercially expected performance levels. However, these days using higher octane fuel CAN result in significantly improved performance and even economy, due to multiple timing tables used that are somewhat dependant on the fuels being used. Old school was a single timing table or advance curve that "assumed" a fuel grade, now with these newer generation control modules the fuel itself will have a specific influence on the actual table being utilized to calculate your desired ignition advance throughout the entire range of temperature, RPM and load.

HTH
WOT

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Old 03-11-2007, 09:38 PM   #14
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

I only use 87 octane. No sluggish at all.

Calculated MPG this tank at 21.2 mixed driving.

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Old 03-12-2007, 07:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WopOnTour View Post
http://www.sae.org/technical/standards/CPGM1_07LY7DUAL

The specifics of the fuel used for the GM LAMBDA can be found in this document. The fuel used will be from a Top Tier commercial source that specifically complies with new SAE J1349 standard which initated a much needed return to OEM honesty in the documentation supporting officially published HP/TQ numbers.

Using AT LEAST the fuel recommended in your owner's manual will provide the commercially expected performance levels. However, these days using higher octane fuel CAN result in significantly improved performance and even economy, due to multiple timing tables used that are somewhat dependant on the fuels being used. Old school was a single timing table or advance curve that "assumed" a fuel grade, now with these newer generation control modules the fuel itself will have a specific influence on the actual table being utilized to calculate your desired ignition advance throughout the entire range of temperature, RPM and load.

HTH
WOT
Wow!! You've sold me. I'm sticking with the good stuff! I'm less concerned with 1 or 2 mpg than performance.

...
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2008 Acura RDX-Tech, loaded, including HIDs and heated leather
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:19 PM   #16
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WopOnTour View Post
... these days using higher octane fuel CAN result in significantly improved performance and even economy....
It is clear that some saturnfans believe this, and we might all like to, but..........

Where exactly did you get this idea? Is it supported by scientific data? If yes, under what conditions was it studied? What are the P values on the significances you cite? Saying "even economy" together with "significantly improved" seems suspect if this is supposed to be real science.

Thanks,
Skeptical Optimist

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Old 03-13-2007, 12:09 AM   #17
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrightOutlook View Post
It is clear that some saturnfans believe this, and we might all like to, but..........

Where exactly did you get this idea? Is it supported by scientific data? If yes, under what conditions was it studied? What are the P values on the significances you cite? Saying "even economy" together with "significantly improved" seems suspect if this is supposed to be real science.

Thanks,
Skeptical Optimist
LOL
This doesn't require empirical evidence or a study.It's pretty basic engine combustion theory- buy a text book if you like. If you've ever "power timed" an old prehistoric distributor ignition system, generally you want to maximize your ignition timing without getting detonation (ping) for your given fuel octane. This IS KNOWN to provide maximum power AND economy for THAT engine, with THAT fuel, under the EXISTING conditions.Have you ever retarded ignition timing a fixed amount? say 10 degrees? The result? reduced power output, and more fuel consumption.Pretty basic stuff.

In short using higher octane fuel will allow the E67 ECM used with the High Value V6 to run additional timing advance. The actual realized benefits of this in terms of improved economy will of course depend greatly on conditions and actual operation. Let's just say it HAS been observed.
I suggest you try it for yourself if you can afford it. But YMMV (literally)
WOT

Last edited by WopOnTour; 03-13-2007 at 12:15 AM..

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Old 03-13-2007, 12:26 AM   #18
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrightOutlook View Post
It is clear that some saturnfans believe this, and we might all like to, but..........

Where exactly did you get this idea? Is it supported by scientific data? If yes, under what conditions was it studied? What are the P values on the significances you cite? Saying "even economy" together with "significantly improved" seems suspect if this is supposed to be real science.

Thanks,
Skeptical Optimist
LOL
This doesn't require empirical evidence or a study.It's pretty basic engine combustion theory- buy a text book if you like. If you've ever "power timed" an old prehistoric distributor ignition system, generally you want to maximize your ignition timing without getting detonation (ping) for your given fuel octane. This IS KNOWN to provide maximum power AND economy for THAT engine, with THAT fuel, under the EXISTING conditions.Have you ever retarded ignition timing a fixed amount? say 10 degrees? The result? reduced power output, and more fuel consumption.Pretty basic stuff.

In short using higher octane fuel WILL allow the E67 ECM used with the High Value V6 to run additional timing advance. The actual realized benefits of this in terms of improved economy will of course depend greatly on the conditions of actual operation. But let's just say it HAS been observed in "unofficial studies" LOL

I suggest you try it for yourself if you can afford it (tougher since the recent fuel price increases- I know) The difficulty will be weighing any observed MPG gains against the additional cost. depending on the price differences between 87 and 93 in your area, there will be a point of course will it might be of little or no economic benefit. But YMMV (literally)

WOT

Oops, sorry for the duplicate post, I wasnt finished editing the original- forgot about Charlie's penchant for 15 minute time limits

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Old 03-13-2007, 10:17 AM   #19
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Default Re: What Octane Gas Are You Putting in Your Outlook?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrightOutlook View Post
It is clear that some saturnfans believe this, and we might all like to, but..........

Where exactly did you get this idea? Is it supported by scientific data? If yes, under what conditions was it studied? What are the P values on the significances you cite? Saying "even economy" together with "significantly improved" seems suspect if this is supposed to be real science.

Thanks,
Skeptical Optimist
Well I don't really believe all the numbers until I do some testing myself. I have never had a vehicle get the sticker stated MPG's, maybe because of the hilly terrain where I live and commute through, or maybe it's the quality of fuel.

I'd like to know the type of fuel being used for their MPG testing and the terrain; average elevation changes, elevation over sea level, type of gas (87,89,93) and the amount/types of additives in the fuel.

My XR AWD does perform better with 89 vs 87 and does get a little better mileage. Through my calculations there is a 1 to 2 MPG increase using the 89 octane fuel. But when calculating the cost per mile it comes close to being the same. With the fluctuating prices in fuel it gets harder to track but I have calculated from $.01 to $.02 savings per mile using 89 over the 87. Granted, it is only 1 or 2 cents per mile but over 100,000 miles its a savings of $1000 to $2000.

Just my $.02 worth,
Falcon

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