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Old 02-21-2007, 11:24 AM   #1
Rob Leigh
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Default '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

I've noticed comments in this forum comparing the '04 and '06 acceleration with the '06 coming in second best.

My '06, FWD, Eibach equipped, non-RL seems fine, but is not quite as fast as my '99 Chrysler 300M. They are about the same weight and both have similar power, 3.5L V6s; the 300M has the auto 4 speed, but a better coefficient of friction.

If the '06 is slower than the '04 is it because of the engine computer or what? I wonder if it had something to do with the '04 rear suspension problems early on and Saturn wanted to play it safe on AWD equipped Vues.

Thoughts?

Rob Leigh

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Old 02-21-2007, 11:58 AM   #2
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Leigh View Post
I've noticed comments in this forum comparing the '04 and '06 acceleration with the '06 coming in second best.

My '06, FWD, Eibach equipped, non-RL seems fine, but is not quite as fast as my '99 Chrysler 300M. They are about the same weight and both have similar power, 3.5L V6s; the 300M has the auto 4 speed, but a better coefficient of friction.

If the '06 is slower than the '04 is it because of the engine computer or what? I wonder if it had something to do with the '04 rear suspension problems early on and Saturn wanted to play it safe on AWD equipped Vues.

Thoughts?

Rob Leigh

Marginal difference if any..and would only be noticeable if you're on a drag strip.

I believe that starting mid year 2004, there was a slight power reduction programmed in for first gear starts, due to excessive torque steer and perhaps some RDM issues..but all the ECM's were supposed to be reflashed..

I suppose it's also possible that the 2006s gained a little weight with the added soundproofing and upgraded interior..plus the RL cladding isn't weight free

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Old 02-21-2007, 02:10 PM   #3
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

Like Burnout found out, if you need maximum power manually shift the transmission. Having the shift in L will bypass the Traction Control and allows for maximum power. The 06-07 may be a little heavier from the improved interior and better soundproofing.

Fotovue has first hand experience. He drove his 04 RL ~56k miles and now has an almost identical 07 RL.

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Old 02-21-2007, 03:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

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Originally Posted by BobbyP View Post
Like Burnout found out, if you need maximum power manually shift the transmission. Having the shift in L will bypass the Traction Control and allows for maximum power. The 06-07 may be a little heavier from the improved interior and better soundproofing.

Fotovue has first hand experience. He drove his 04 RL ~56k miles and now has an almost identical 07 RL.
There must have been a reprogramming. I had an '04 and now have an '06. The '06 is definitely not as quick as my old one. My in-laws also have an '04 and theirs was/is quicker than my '04. I gave up trying to figure it out. It must have had something to do with torque or AWD component preservation.

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Old 02-21-2007, 05:37 PM   #5
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Leigh View Post
I've noticed comments in this forum comparing the '04 and '06 acceleration with the '06 coming in second best.

My '06, FWD, Eibach equipped, non-RL seems fine, but is not quite as fast as my '99 Chrysler 300M. They are about the same weight and both have similar power, 3.5L V6s; the 300M has the auto 4 speed, but a better coefficient of friction.

If the '06 is slower than the '04 is it because of the engine computer or what? I wonder if it had something to do with the '04 rear suspension problems early on and Saturn wanted to play it safe on AWD equipped Vues.

Thoughts?

Rob Leigh
According to this, http://www.exoticcarsite.com/0-60-qu...mile-times.htm, the 3.5L Vue is quicker than a '99 Chrysler 300M and I wouldn't think a AWD Vue would be quicker than a FWD Vue due to the weight factor. The Butt Dyno is not very reliable.

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Old 02-22-2007, 11:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

djb383,

We just made a complete loop. The Vue exoticcarsite reports 7.0 on an '04 AWD. I wonder how Car and Driver got their data? The 8-04 Motor Trend quotes 7.4 for 0-60 on an '04 AWD. The 1-99 Motor Trend quotes my 300M (with performance handling package) as 7.7 0-60. I just feel my 300M feels a bit quicker than my '06 FWD Vue.

Thoughts?

Last edited by Rob Leigh; 02-22-2007 at 12:00 PM..

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Old 02-22-2007, 03:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Leigh View Post
djb383,

We just made a complete loop. The Vue exoticcarsite reports 7.0 on an '04 AWD. I wonder how Car and Driver got their data? The 8-04 Motor Trend quotes 7.4 for 0-60 on an '04 AWD. The 1-99 Motor Trend quotes my 300M (with performance handling package) as 7.7 0-60. I just feel my 300M feels a bit quicker than my '06 FWD Vue.

Thoughts?
Exoticcarsite list 1999 Chrysler 300M 7.9 16.0

The VUE is faster, I got into a little drag race with a 300M about 6 months ago and beat him pretty good with my 2004 FWD V6 VUE.

...
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Old 02-23-2007, 10:13 AM   #8
Rob Leigh
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

CRJ19,

With perf pkg, it says the 300M to 60 is 7.7. Mine has the perf. pkg.

You make my point too: the '04s seem faster than the '06s.

The question is why? Can the '06 be "upgraded" to the '04 software if that is the reason they are faster? I do not believe we have to worry about the rear end since it has now been beefed up in these later models and since we are discussing the FWD Vues.

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Old 02-24-2007, 06:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

I talked with one of the techs at my dealership recently about the power reduction, and he had no idea about it. Its obvious to me when driving that the throttle doesn't open 100% in first gear, and I would think that the dealership would/SHOULD know about this. I asked about back-flashing the ECU, and he acted as if it wasn't possible.

Maybe someone that has a better relationship with a saturn tech can figure out more on this issue? I really wish ebay had more vue ECU's, as I have never been able to find them for sale on the net!

...
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Old 02-25-2007, 07:30 AM   #10
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

Quote:
Originally Posted by burnout View Post
I talked with one of the techs at my dealership recently about the power reduction, and he had no idea about it. Its obvious to me when driving that the throttle doesn't open 100% in first gear, and I would think that the dealership would/SHOULD know about this. I asked about back-flashing the ECU, and he acted as if it wasn't possible.

Maybe someone that has a better relationship with a saturn tech can figure out more on this issue? I really wish ebay had more vue ECU's, as I have never been able to find them for sale on the net!
As I stated in a post a few weeks back, I asked this question about a change in acceleration to my sales manager. He knew nothing of it, but did take 3 Vues out for spins to see if he could comprehend. Once he got back, he told me that there was a noticable difference between the Vues he drove, but he couldn't tell me why. I don't recall what year and FWD vs AWD, but after he told me he noticed something, I put my concerns to rest (I wasn't crazy anymore). My '06 simply is not as fast as my old '04 or my in-law's '04. It has to be done to reduce the could be perceived "driving harshness" when mashing the throttle or done to try to reduce hardware stress in 1st gear... ho hum......

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Old 02-28-2007, 11:27 PM   #11
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Checkered Flag Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

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Originally Posted by 20VUE06 View Post
As I stated in a post a few weeks back, I asked this question about a change in acceleration to my sales manager. He knew nothing of it, but did take 3 Vues out for spins to see if he could comprehend. Once he got back, he told me that there was a noticable difference between the Vues he drove, but he couldn't tell me why. I don't recall what year and FWD vs AWD, but after he told me he noticed something, I put my concerns to rest (I wasn't crazy anymore). My '06 simply is not as fast as my old '04 or my in-law's '04. It has to be done to reduce the could be perceived "driving harshness" when mashing the throttle or done to try to reduce hardware stress in 1st gear... ho hum......
Mid year 2004, after they had replaced dozens of RDMs in AWD Vues, such as mine, for the infamous "wah wah" problem, they did 2 things. First, they redesigned the clutch pack in the RDM so that it engaged more slowly, and then to everyone's detriment, engaged a torque limiter on first gear so that you don't get a full WOT in first gear until you're something like halfway throught the power band. My '04 RL AWD still has the original design, despite having been replaced once (and yes, it still wah-wahs sometimes in tight turns, but I've discovered that a fresh dose of Versatrak fluid fixes that for about 10k miles). I don't have the torque reduction deal either.

Fotovue and I went out to the track with our nearly identical '04 AWD RL Vues almost 2 years ago, when I was up in TN for the Tail of the Dragon trip. At the quarter mile drag, the best time I got was about 15.4 seconds. I don't recall the 0-60 times. I had recently changed fluids in the tranny, power takeoff unit, and RDM, and put 5w20 synthetic oil in before I drove up to TN. I beat Fotovue on all 6 runs, the last of which by about 3/8 of a mile because his computer kicked into "save my bacon" mode from overheating the tranny (which I think was because of his launch technique). The first couple races were within 1 car length, but the more runs we did, the longer the lead I had on him, and it all boils down to HOW HEALTHY IS YOUR TRANSMISSION.

So, yeah, an '06 AWD RL will be slightly slower on a drag than an '04 AWD, but supposedly, a FWD will always be faster because of the reduced weight and driveline drag. However, I would be happy to challenge any FWD owner, RL or not, to race on a wet road with me once I get tires with some tread on them. I've raced 5.0 Fox Body Mustangs on a wet road and left them for dead. LMAO I've also raced a Dodge Ram with the big dawg Hemi and walked away from him. So, if your 300M had the Hemi, I'd say it would beat the Vue, but otherwise, I doubt it.

I think the reason your 300M seems faster is because your butt is closer to the ground.

Hey man, wanna race me in my tupperware grocery getter?

Here I am with Fotovue riding shotgun on the Tail of the Dragon. After this ride, Fotovue said he'd never ride the Tail with me again, but I "never once crossed the double yellow" LOL

http://dante.myftp.org/images/Vue/Ta...s/img_1769.jpg

http://dante.myftp.org/images/Vue/Ta...s/img_1770.jpg

LOOK AT THAT WHEEL GAP! ALMOST NOTHING!

http://dante.myftp.org/images/Vue/Ta...s/img_1771.jpg

...
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Old 02-28-2007, 11:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

Nice pictures! It must have been pretty demanding to scare Fotovue... I probably would have been rattled also...

...
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:07 AM   #13
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante View Post
Fotovue and I went out to the track with our nearly identical '04 AWD RL Vues almost 2 years ago, when I was up in TN for the Tail of the Dragon trip. At the quarter mile drag, the best time I got was about 15.4 seconds. I don't recall the 0-60 times. I had recently changed fluids in the tranny, power takeoff unit, and RDM, and put 5w20 synthetic oil in before I drove up to TN. I beat Fotovue on all 6 runs, the last of which by about 3/8 of a mile because his computer kicked into "save my bacon" mode from overheating the tranny (which I think was because of his launch technique). The first couple races were within 1 car length, but the more runs we did, the longer the lead I had on him, and it all boils down to HOW HEALTHY IS YOUR TRANSMISSION.
Interestingly, and possibly to further the point of a possible change to protect the RDM, I had already had an RDM replacement at that point, I believe.

As for my personal seat-of-pants-dyno tests between my 04 and my 07, my 07 seems a tiny bit faster (marginal at best) but it is also a FWD, and my 04 was AWD. In my opinion, I think my pre-rdm replacement, pre-rear suspension recall 04 AWD would be a very close match to my 07 FWD, which kinda clearly implies in my mind that the 04's were faster.

But for those of you now wishing you had an 04, just remember your top speed is higher

I think i'd like to have a rematch with dante sometime...


Quote:
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Nice pictures! It must have been pretty demanding to scare Fotovue... I probably would have been rattled also...
Too many blind curves and oncoming kamikaze vehicles in our lane for me not to be scared bleepless. I've gone faster and driven more dangerously, and been a passenger to more dangerous driving than that, but it was with lights and sirens, and alot less blind curves, so it doesn't seem as scary when I do it daily here, as it did when I was riding with Dante.

...
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Old 03-01-2007, 07:47 AM   #14
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

Torque reduction to protect the RDM? No. The RDM is self-protecting through pressure-relief.

Engine temperature = Big variable. Hot = slow. First run down the track on a cool engine will be faster than later runs with a hot engine.

"FWD faster than AWD" assumes any torque management is the same on both

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Old 03-01-2007, 05:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

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Torque reduction to protect the RDM? No. The RDM is self-protecting through pressure-relief.

Engine temperature = Big variable. Hot = slow. First run down the track on a cool engine will be faster than later runs with a hot engine.

"FWD faster than AWD" assumes any torque management is the same on both
FWD has always been faster on a grippy surface simply because of the lack of extra weight and drivetrain drag.

Engine temp is important, but in this case it was the transmission temp that had more of an impact. The Honda auto is the "weak link" in a Vue, even despite the wonky RDM. It still hooks up, you just have to slip a lot on the front to get it to do it. More or less slip depending on several factors.

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Old 03-01-2007, 05:51 PM   #16
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Default Re: '04 vrs '06 RL acceleration

Quote:
Originally Posted by fotovue View Post
Interestingly, and possibly to further the point of a possible change to protect the RDM, I had already had an RDM replacement at that point, I believe.

As for my personal seat-of-pants-dyno tests between my 04 and my 07, my 07 seems a tiny bit faster (marginal at best) but it is also a FWD, and my 04 was AWD. In my opinion, I think my pre-rdm replacement, pre-rear suspension recall 04 AWD would be a very close match to my 07 FWD, which kinda clearly implies in my mind that the 04's were faster.

But for those of you now wishing you had an 04, just remember your top speed is higher

I think i'd like to have a rematch with dante sometime...
I am confident that your 07 FWD would be faster than my 04 AWD on the quarter mile, but the limited top speed wouldn't have any impact. We never got over 90 MPH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fotovue View Post
Too many blind curves and oncoming kamikaze vehicles in our lane for me not to be scared bleepless. I've gone faster and driven more dangerously, and been a passenger to more dangerous driving than that, but it was with lights and sirens, and alot less blind curves, so it doesn't seem as scary when I do it daily here, as it did when I was riding with Dante.
Blind curves are DA BOMB. Lane crosses are dumb ****s. Even the sign at the bottom of the Dragon says so... "lane crossing kills"

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