SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-12-2006, 03:20 PM   #1
captsam
Member
captsam is on a distinguished road
 
captsam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Gabriel, CA
Posts: 195

1997 SW2
1996 SL2
Default Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

I recently bought a used 1997 Saturn SW2 with 81K Miles on it. It's a manual transmission. I've noticed a hard rattle on the passenger side of the engine. I already replaced the top axis mount, but the noise has not changed. It only rattles between 1000 and 1100 RPM. Above and below those revs, no noise at all. I haven't replaced the bottom engine mount, (the one just behind the front passenger-side tire).

I've owned a 94 and 92 SL1 in the past, so I'm not too keen on the Twin Cam S Series. Perhaps someone could share their insight.

I've known that Twin Cam Saturns tend to have timing chain problems at roughly 100K to 120K (my impression from reading news forums)... Could this be the problem?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Sam

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to captsam's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help captsam reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
captsam is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 12-12-2006, 03:44 PM   #2
madpogue
Super Member
madpogue is a splendid one to beholdmadpogue is a splendid one to beholdmadpogue is a splendid one to beholdmadpogue is a splendid one to beholdmadpogue is a splendid one to beholdmadpogue is a splendid one to beholdmadpogue is a splendid one to behold
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 25,342
 

1996 SW2
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

First, rule out (or in) any "external" cause on that side. Remove the serpentine belt and run the engine for a few seconds. Just rev it up through that RPM band you mention. Of course, if the noise has gone away, the suspect is one of your belt-driven components, or the belt itself.

After you replaced the top mount, did you follow this procedure to remove preload? Doubt it would cause the degree of noise you're hearing, but again, best to rule it out.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to madpogue's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help madpogue reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
madpogue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2006, 04:49 PM   #3
eljefino
Master Member
eljefino will become famous soon enough
 
eljefino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Standish Maine
Posts: 5,783
 

1995 SW1
2000 SL1
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Does it sound like this?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to eljefino's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help eljefino reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
eljefino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 12:50 AM   #4
captsam
Member
captsam is on a distinguished road
 
captsam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Gabriel, CA
Posts: 195

1997 SW2
1996 SL2
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Nope... I guess it doesn't sound like a bad timing chain. My old 1992 SL1 (still running the original chain) at 185K doesn't even sound like that. Good grief. Thanks for the FLV file though, very enlightening. The sound is a bit subtler, but still vibrates the dash a bit. I did not follow the Strut-bracket-to-cradle nuts procedure. I guess I'll have to jack up the car again. It'll be good anyway, I should have checked the lower mount anyway... this way I'll have a good look at it.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Sam

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to captsam's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help captsam reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
captsam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 03:15 AM   #5
Bigdaddy94sc2
Senior Member
Bigdaddy94sc2 is on a distinguished road
 
Bigdaddy94sc2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Anderson, SC (Clemson)
Posts: 1,545
 

2006 ION-2 Sedan
2005 VUE 3.5L
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

I would suggest removing the belt and seeing if the problem goes away. A lot of times, when water pumps begin to fail, they will make a loud metallic noise, due to play from the shaft.

...
GM, Saturn, and ASE certified Technician. Always glad to try to help, just ask!!! Now own an 06 ION.2 as of 7/2/06 with 2988 and counting (7/28/06) 13131 as of (1/8/07) 24901 as of (7/30/07)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Bigdaddy94sc2's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Bigdaddy94sc2 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Bigdaddy94sc2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 04:49 AM   #6
eljefino
Master Member
eljefino will become famous soon enough
 
eljefino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Standish Maine
Posts: 5,783
 

1995 SW1
2000 SL1
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

I like the idea of a belt-driven acc going out too. As RPM specific as you say it is it could be a resonance thing.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to eljefino's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help eljefino reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
eljefino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 07:21 AM   #7
10W30
Advanced Member
10W30 is on a distinguished road
 
10W30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 714

1994 SL2
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Taking off the belt is a good idea to rule out if it's a timing chain noise. Just don't do it too long, you'll overheat the engine.

My best guess is that maybe one of the components that the belt is on. The Crank, Altenator, Water Pump, AC Compressor, Power Steering pulley, and Idler pulley might be loose. If they were loose from a loose/missing bolt.... it would rattle.
First take the belt off and grab each component and wiggle them to see if there is any play.
Then check the power steering bolts behind the pulley ( I think there are 3). A bolt might of worked it's way a little bit and the pulley is hitting the top of the bolt.
Then check all the other bolts holding each component.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 10W30's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 10W30 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
10W30 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 12:01 PM   #8
Sky King
Master Member
Sky King is on a distinguished road
 
Sky King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Memphis Tennessee
Posts: 2,307

1999 SC2
1995 SL2
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captsam View Post
I've known that Twin Cam Saturns tend to have timing chain problems at roughly 100K to 120K (my impression from reading news forums)... Could this be the problem?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Sam
I agree with the advice already given about trouble shooting your problem. However I think what may give people the impression that these chains start to fail around the 100K mark is that a lot of people will go ahead and change them as a precaution IF they are already doing work that has them in there anyway.

These chains are intended to last the life of the car, HOWEVER most problems arise as a result of not maintaining the proper oil level and doing regular oil changes.

...
1999 SC-2 280,000 miles -mine now also dead, RIP
1995 SL-2 296,000 miles - my wifes totaled, RIP
1993 Chevrolet S-10 Pick-up - mine
2003 Harley Davidson Low Rider - mine

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Sky King's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Sky King reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Sky King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 06:34 PM   #9
captsam
Member
captsam is on a distinguished road
 
captsam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Gabriel, CA
Posts: 195

1997 SW2
1996 SL2
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky King View Post
These chains are intended to last the life of the car, HOWEVER most problems arise as a result of not maintaining the proper oil level and doing regular oil changes.
Thanks for all of the advice so far. I'll have to tinker with the car my next day off. Most of my speculation about the timing chain going out at 100-120K dates back to days when I used to read rec.autos.makers.saturn on USEnet. I'm sure many of you guys used to hang out there (or perhaps still do). I'm starting to think it's more the water pump. I do remember a few years back my old 1994 SL1 had some weird resonating noises before the pump ate it. Anyway, thanks again. I'll keep you posted on my findings.


Sam

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to captsam's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help captsam reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
captsam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2006, 10:05 PM   #10
DOHC Brown
Member
DOHC Brown is on a distinguished road
 
DOHC Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 251

2004 ION-1 Sedan
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljefino View Post
My used motor has sounded like that for the past 20k miles. What's the deal exactly. If it's not a "problem" i'll just leave it be.

edit: I can plainly see it says timing chain in the video. But I wan't to know why.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to DOHC Brown's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help DOHC Brown reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
DOHC Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2006, 10:09 AM   #11
eljefino
Master Member
eljefino will become famous soon enough
 
eljefino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Standish Maine
Posts: 5,783
 

1995 SW1
2000 SL1
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.



Here's the deal... slack in the chain. Look at the black thing between the two cam sprockets, that is a guide and supposed to be touching the chain. (I tweaked one cam against valve spring pressure to test for slack-- and found it)

After I shot that video and took this picture, I replaced the chain and tensioner (and I think the guides too... I forget... but highly recommend changing everything.)

If your chain sounds this bad, it's flapping around and eating away at metal that holds you motor oil in. If you actually wore a hole it could fail catastrophically. Also if your plastic guide has a crack in it it too could blow up and take a lot of stuff out with it.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to eljefino's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help eljefino reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
eljefino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2006, 10:04 PM   #12
DOHC Brown
Member
DOHC Brown is on a distinguished road
 
DOHC Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 251

2004 ION-1 Sedan
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

How much to DIY it?

I plan on keeping it at least a few more months, and I really don't need it to fail right now seeing as how I haven't been at my job THAT long..don't wanna be late..EVER.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to DOHC Brown's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help DOHC Brown reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
DOHC Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 08:40 AM   #13
BarnOwl
Super Member
BarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really nice
 
BarnOwl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hickory, NC
Posts: 10,005
 

2000 SW2
1998 SL2
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

The timing chain kit and a cam cover gasket will run you about $200. It'll be good to have a Chilton's or Haynes manual for the pictures of where the colored links on the timing chain go and for the procedures with the crankshaft. This is an interference engine. So, if the timing chain breaks or jumps a link and the engine turns over at all afterwards, you'll at a minimum bend some valves.

I'm sure this will be in the Chilton's or Haynes but, it's important, so I'll highlight it. The procedure is to put the key on the crankshaft at 3:00 o'clock past TDC. This will put the pistons in the center of their travel away from the valves. Leave the crankshaft in this position while you are removing all the parts. When you are ready to install the chain, put the valves at TDC then rotate the crankshaft back to TDC. Following this procedure will save you a bent valve.

The place that most people get stuck is getting the bolt out of the end of the crankshaft. Here's a link to a thread that has a variety of ways to do that.

...
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to BarnOwl's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help BarnOwl reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
BarnOwl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 10:52 AM   #14
97coupe
Master Member
97coupe is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,260

1997 SC2
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljefino View Post
Hey I like that. Nice touch!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to 97coupe's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help 97coupe reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
97coupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 05:51 PM   #15
eljefino
Master Member
eljefino will become famous soon enough
 
eljefino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Standish Maine
Posts: 5,783
 

1995 SW1
2000 SL1
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Heres another video but this time of how I get the crank pulley off.

Just set up a breaker bar on the pavement under the front bumper and hit the starter a few times.

This job is all swearing and not much thinking. Use the best 6 point 10mm socket you've got and have lots of bandaids and beer for the bloody knuckled aftermath.

It's pretty easy for the cams to find 3 o'clock, take the spark plugs out then the valve spring pressure will force them all to either 3 or 9 o'clock. I counted how many teeth were off from "top" and rotated the bottom to match then rotated through a couple times when I put the chain back on to make sure I got it. You want to make sure the forward side is taut as you test since the tensioner takes up the slack in the rear.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to eljefino's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help eljefino reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
eljefino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2006, 12:58 AM   #16
DOHC Brown
Member
DOHC Brown is on a distinguished road
 
DOHC Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 251

2004 ION-1 Sedan
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Thanks for all the input people. I do have a Chiltons manual for the car, so I'll go about reading it on this section to get ready. Already bought the parts from my local stealership. Wish me luck, hehe. I've done all the other repairs myself, i'm sure it will turn out good.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to DOHC Brown's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help DOHC Brown reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
DOHC Brown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2007, 10:00 PM   #17
captsam
Member
captsam is on a distinguished road
 
captsam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Gabriel, CA
Posts: 195

1997 SW2
1996 SL2
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Sorry to bring back an old topic, but I finally got around to crawling under the car. I removed the splash guard from the passenger side front wheel. I redid the top engine mount and this time did the Strut-bracket-to-cradle nuts procedure. After doing this, I realized you can do the loosening and tightening of the two nuts without removing the splash guard. All the loosening does is remove pressure from the lower engine mount (I did not realize this).

We sort of strayed from the original topic of the thread... but I did take the belt off and run it... definitely not engine noise. I moved all the parts in the path of the serpentine drive belt. The tensioner was solid (didn't wiggle), but the idler pulley wheel and the wheel of the power steering pump did wiggle slightly. I'm not certain if this is enough to make the noise/vibration I hear/feel between 1000 and 1100 RPM. I'm starting to suspect the power steering pump, as the noise/vibration does go away when the steering wheel is turned while I'm idling at a stop. However, this is not scientific... as the RPMs also drop with the turn of the steering wheel (I'm guessing the power steering pump is changing the RPM). So, it's difficult to me to pinpoint the exact problem. I guess I'll need to get one of those mechanic's stethoscopes.

All advice is welcome.

Thanks,
Sam

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to captsam's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help captsam reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
captsam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2007, 10:22 PM   #18
Tom Walsh
Member
Tom Walsh is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 256
 
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Forgot who suggested it,but you can use a piece of heater hose. Working man's stethoscope.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Tom Walsh's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Tom Walsh reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Tom Walsh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2007, 09:22 AM   #19
BarnOwl
Super Member
BarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really niceBarnOwl is just really nice
 
BarnOwl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Hickory, NC
Posts: 10,005
 

2000 SW2
1998 SL2
Default Re: Timing Belt? Rattle on the Passenger Side.

I'd replace the bearings on the idler pulley first. I don't have the parts number but, someone will post it. You can get them at NAPA for about $6. It's a lot cheaper and less hassle than messing with the PS.

...
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to BarnOwl's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help BarnOwl reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
BarnOwl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2007, 12:14 PM   #20
Luke
Master Member
Luke will become famous soon enough
 
Luke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Laguna Bch, CA
Posts: 4,159

1995 SL2
Default Rattle on the Passenger Side.

Quote:
Fm Capt Sam
did the Strut-bracket-to-cradle nuts procedure. After doing this, I realized you can do the loosening and tightening of the two nuts without removing the splash guard. All the loosening does is remove pressure from the lower engine mount (I did not realize this).
Simple, isn't it... But, important

Quote:
Fm Barn Owl
I'd replace the bearings on the idler pulley first. I don't have the parts number but
# 6203 ...

...
> 95 SL 2 = 649,619 Miles 40.4 MPG, as of 4/19/11. My manual Radiator Fan Switch, courtesy of Wolfman's patient installation guidance, continues to be.......invaluable <

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Luke's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Luke reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Luke is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Belt side rattle Phredawgy S-Series Tech 27 01-24-2008 08:23 AM
Passenger side rattle when cold john95SW2 Vue Tech 2 01-03-2008 04:49 PM
Front suspension noise/rattle over bumps passenger side Cessna S-Series Tech 1 11-21-2007 02:14 PM
Solution Found:!!!! for Passenger Side Windshield Wind Noise/Rattle dtm1962 Ion General 3 10-04-2005 06:38 AM
L300 Front Passenger Side Rattle AArmstrong L-Series General 7 10-17-2004 05:41 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12 AM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.