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Old 09-06-2006, 02:51 PM   #21
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium48
The atmospheric pressure effect is due to buoyancy and is very small (less than a pound difference between sea level and vacuum) and opposite in sign (you are lighter at sea level).
Look up your scientific facts again. The pull of the earth's gravity, and the weight of atmospheric pressure is stronger at sea level than it is at a higher level. Therefore you weigh more.

Again, I don't know how many times I have to explain this to you guys that think I'm wrong....... Let me give you an example.
If you build a 300whp car in Colorado, it's going to have more hp when you take it to Florida due to the atmospheric pressure and humidity change.

You my friend, need to retake science class.

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Old 09-06-2006, 04:01 PM   #22
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

Quote:
Originally Posted by project92SC2
Look up your scientific facts again. The pull of the earth's gravity, and the weight of atmospheric pressure is stronger at sea level than it is at a higher level. Therefore you weigh more.
Atmospheric pressure is exerted equally in all directions so it will NOT affect the weight of an object directly. The only effect is due to buoyancy. You are correct about the effect of moving away from the centre of the Earth on the pull of gravity, but that effect is also small and you previous post mentioned atmospheric pressure only.

So lets do some calculations. Earth's sea level radius is 6367km+/-20km depending on latitude (being closest to average near 45N or S). Going from sea level to Denver (altitude 1600m) will alter the accelleration due to gravity by a factor of (6367^2)/((6367+1.6)^2) = 0.999498, making you 0.05% lighter (199.9 lb instead of 200) at the higher elevation.

The universal gas law is PV=nRT, solving for n gives us n=PV/RT. 1 cubic meter of air at 101.3kPa and 294K (21C) contains (101300Pa*1m3)/(8.314J/K.mol*294K)=41.443 moles of gas molecules. With a mean molecular weight of about 29 that gives a density of 1.20 kg/m3. Moving up to 1600m (average air pressure of 84 kPa) gives us (84000Pa*1m3)/(8.314J/K.mol*294K)=34.365 moles of gas, for a density of 1.00 kg/m3. If you weigh about 200lb your volume will be about 100L (0.1m3), resulting in a buoyancy effect of 0.12kg at sea level and 0.10kg at 1600m. Thus you would be 20g (0.05 lb) LIGHTER at sea level if gravity was the same, which it would be if your trip back to sea level took you to the Gulf of Mexico (lower latitude = larger radius of Earth).

These two effects are similar in magnitude and opposite in sign so they partially cancel, leaving you 0.05lb lighter in Denver than you would be at the same latitude on the coast in northern California.

Quote:
Originally Posted by project92SC2
If you build a 300whp car in Colorado, it's going to have more hp when you take it to Florida due to the atmospheric pressure and humidity change.
Pressure yes, humidity no. Increasing the atmospheric pressure from 84kPa to 101kPa will give you 20% more power with all else being equal. Higher humidity and the greater tendancy of higher pressure fuel-air mixtures to prematurely ignite will counter these gains somewhat.

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Old 09-06-2006, 05:33 PM   #23
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

Do your homework some more....... yes, atmospheric pressure is exerted equally in all directions, but, air has weight just like water does, otherwise, it wouldn't be able to stay in the Earth's gravitational pull.
Back on topic here. Humidity also has to do with cylinder pressures. If you take for instance, a day with 40% humidity in the air, an engine will run normally. The next day, it is 90% humidity outside, and you are in a low-pressure front. The air is cooler, and denser. The engine runs slightly stronger than the day before, accelerating quicker than usual, and sounds a little throatier at high RPM.
AIR HAS WEIGHT. In a low pressure front, the air is cooled, and condensed, with added humidity, it is already more than 14.7psi in weight by volume. In a high pressure zone, air is drier, hotter, less dense. Therefore, engine performance changes day by day, varying by atmospheric pressure.........

The very term "pressure" pwns you. You're saying that atmospheric pressure doesn't change the weight of an object or person by location. I weighed 238lbs when I left Michigan on 08Feb2006 for basic training, the next day, I woke up at Fort Jackson, SC. I found a scale, and weighed in at nearly 250lbs. Atmospheric Pressure is different altitudes, get your science straight before you try to prove me wrong again plz.

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Old 09-06-2006, 07:35 PM   #24
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

Quote:
Originally Posted by project92SC2
...I weighed 238lbs when I left Michigan on 08Feb2006 for basic training, the next day, I woke up at Fort Jackson, SC. I found a scale, and weighed in at nearly 250lbs. ...
I think I know where the extra 12 pounds came from. Some people just retain it, some just visit the latrine and get rid of it. From reading your many posts, it appears that you are full of it.

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Old 09-06-2006, 08:13 PM   #25
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry Proctor
I think I know where the extra 12 pounds came from. Some people just retain it, some just visit the latrine and get rid of it. From reading your many posts, it appears that you are full of it.
Bad example. Anyways, who are you to sit there and call me full of it? You doubt me? Ask me something.

(edit) Not trying to be an arse towards you, just trying to prove my knowledge.

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Old 09-06-2006, 08:24 PM   #26
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

Quote:
Originally Posted by project92SC2
Do your homework some more....... yes, atmospheric pressure is exerted equally in all directions, but, air has weight just like water does, otherwise, it wouldn't be able to stay in the Earth's gravitational pull.
I never said air didn't have weight, but that doesn't mean it makes you weigh more. Water is much denser than air and most people have negative weight in water (they float). You can dive 10m under the surface of the ocean and experience a pressure of twice the sea level atmospheric pressure but it doesn't make you any heavier. You will have 14.7 pounds of water per square inch above you in addition to the 14.7 pounds of air per square inch above that but your weight will still be negative. You will float to the surface if you stop swimming downwards - you can't sit on the ocean floor unless you are denser than most people. This is a buoyancy efffect and the same thing happens in air, although to a much lesser extent due to the lower density of air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by project92SC2
Back on topic here. Humidity also has to do with cylinder pressures. If you take for instance, a day with 40% humidity in the air, an engine will run normally. The next day, it is 90% humidity outside, and you are in a low-pressure front. The air is cooler, and denser. The engine runs slightly stronger than the day before, accelerating quicker than usual, and sounds a little throatier at high RPM.
Sure. Gas density is just as dependant on temperature as it is on pressure, and cool air at 90% relative humidity doesn't have much more water in it than warmer air at 40% RH due to the rapid increase in the saturated vapor pressure of water with temperature.

For example: Day 1 - (RH) = 40%, barometric pressure = 102kPa, temperature = 30C. Day 2 - RH=90%, barometer = 100kPa, temperature = 20C.
At 30C the saturated vapor pressure of water is 4.2kPa, so the equivalent dry atmospheric pressure is 102-(0.4*4.2)=100.3kPa. The equivalent dry density is then (100300Pa)(1m3)/(8.314)(303)=39.82 mol/m3 or 1.15kg/m3.
At 20C the saturated vapor pressure of water is 2.3kPa, so the equivalent dry atmospheric pressure is 100-(0.9*2.3)=97.9kPa. The equivalent dry density is then (97900Pa)(1m3)/(8.314)(293)=40.19 mol/m3 or 1.17kg/m3.

In other words, the cooler, more humid, LOWER PRESSURE air has a higher oxygen density than the warmer, drier, HIGHER PRESSURE air. I know you know this, but your confusion of pressure and density is, well, causing confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by project92SC2
The very term "pressure" pwns you. You're saying that atmospheric pressure doesn't change the weight of an object or person by location. I weighed 238lbs when I left Michigan on 08Feb2006 for basic training, the next day, I woke up at Fort Jackson, SC. I found a scale, and weighed in at nearly 250lbs. Atmospheric Pressure is different altitudes, get your science straight before you try to prove me wrong again plz.
Yes, the atmospheric pressure decreases with increasing altitude, but that didn't make you 12lbs heavier, it made you a fraction of a pound lighter (not counting variations in the accelleration due to gravity). Your weight difference was most likely a calibration error in one or both scales. There's a reason cheap bathroom scales say "not legal for trade" on them.

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Old 09-07-2006, 09:09 AM   #27
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

This is an informative thread and probably should be saved. That doesn't mean it should be a sticky. It belongs in the How-To forum. There are several other informational type threads there.

BTW post count alone indicates the person probably knows what they are talking about, but it's not everything. My post count is higher than that of Saturn-Eh!. However, I'll be the first to tell you that he knows more about these cars than I do.

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Old 09-07-2006, 01:30 PM   #28
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Cool Re: Basic Engine Operations

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarnOwl
This is an informative thread and probably should be saved. That doesn't mean it should be a sticky. It belongs in the How-To forum. There are several other informational type threads there.

BTW post count alone indicates the person probably knows what they are talking about, but it's not everything. My post count is higher than that of Saturn-Eh!. However, I'll be the first to tell you that he knows more about these cars than I do.
THANK YOU.

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Old 09-07-2006, 03:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

Quote:
Originally Posted by project92SC2
You doubt me? Ask me something.
What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

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Old 09-07-2006, 04:38 PM   #30
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

Quote:
Originally Posted by project92SC2
The very term "pressure" pwns you. You're saying that atmospheric pressure doesn't change the weight of an object or person by location. I weighed 238lbs when I left Michigan on 08Feb2006 for basic training, the next day, I woke up at Fort Jackson, SC. I found a scale, and weighed in at nearly 250lbs. Atmospheric Pressure is different altitudes, get your science straight before you try to prove me wrong again plz.
Dude, that has a lot more to do with the fact that you used two different scales than the "weight" of the atmosphere. People don't weigh 12 pounds more because they're in a different place. In any case, if the atmosphere were pressing down on you that much, then it would also be pressing down on the scale that much, so when it's properly zeroed, the reading when you stand on it will read the same.

Actually, your latitude affects your weight more than your altitude. But even then, the scales will read the same. And we're talking about very tiny numbers here, certainly not 12 pounds. You need to work on your experimental methods a little bit

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Old 09-07-2006, 04:59 PM   #31
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

erick295...... read the whole post.

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Old 09-07-2006, 05:02 PM   #32
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

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Originally Posted by project92SC2
erick295...... read the whole post.
What did you want me to see..?

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Old 09-07-2006, 05:24 PM   #33
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

SIG'D. this thread is great

...
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Old 09-07-2006, 11:20 PM   #34
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

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Originally Posted by sPuddingTime
SIG'D. this thread is great
I was hoping someone would get more from this thread than a sig...... but hey..... +1 for you....

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Old 09-08-2006, 02:27 AM   #35
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

A LOT of miss-information here, just a few highlights:


Quote:
Originally Posted by project92SC2
Basic Engine Operation 101:

An engine is an air pump. It sucks air in via the intake system, compresses it, combusts the compressed air,...
Silly me, I thought it combusts the FUEL. Last I checked, plain air won't burn...



Quote:
Also to make more power, an engine can only fit so much air into the cylinders. There are 2 ways of adding more air to the cylinders. Colder air is denser, so this is why the cold air intake was invented. For every degree 15*F cooler the intake charge is, you are able to add an estimated 5 cubic inches of air compared to a normal intake temperature that is heated from the engine bay heat.
This would seem to assume that all engines have the same cubic inch displacement...ummm...nope.

Quote:
In 2 stroke engines, it operates off of a permanent gear setup,
Not necessarily. A 2 stroke engine can also use a conventional belt driven supercharger.

Quote:
a turbocharger....Thus, using very little, if any engine horsepower.
Unless of course you include the fact that the impellor does restrict exhaust flow....and the compressor builds pressure which in turn backs up and makes it harder for the exhaust to turn the impellor....further restricting exhaust flow... (neither super or turbo chargers operate without parasitic power loss. In fact, if anything, a supercharger system is MORE efficient than a turbo charger system parasitic loss wise, but loses out in terms of complexity and weight. A supercharger system is also easier to tune)

Quote:
Fuel isn't a power additive.
Oh really, try running an engine with no fuel. Fuel is the PRIMARY power additive.

Quote:
When you want to make more power without going forced induction and spending hundreds to thousands of dollars, then timing adjustments can be made. The typical way to do this, is the guessing game. You'll want to advance your intake timing, opening your intake valves sooner, and retard your exhaust timing, opening your exhaust valves later. (doing both is only able to be done on a DOHC engine unless you have a custom cam made with those adjustments.) This will allow more air into your combustion chamber, and aid in pushing the combusted exhaust out, thus creating more power.
You can of course also just increase the lift and duration without changing the timing at all, and accomplish essentially the same thing, clearance issues allowing. This why those old timey pushrod engines used a variety of rocker arm ratios...

Quote:
All and all, there is not a possible way to effectively increase intake "speed" without going forced induction.
Well, you might want to tell that to the folks who build and make high flow cylinder heads and intake manifolds....

Quote:
Nitrous is a different story. People think it is a big power add-on because it is more combustible. Not at all true. It is a big power adder because Nitrous is sent through at a VERY VERY cold temperature, somewhere around -150*F or lower. This allows the air inside to condense, thus, effectively helping the larger intake system.
Umm, nope. Nitrous itself is not flamable. (You are correct) it works by releasing large amounts of OXYGEN in the combustion chamber at the moment of ignition. Nitrous Oxide. As in a chemical combination of the gases Nitrogen and Oxygen. The gas mixture splits at the moment of cumbustion releasing Oxygen to increase combustion efficientcy allowing you to dump in copious amounts of that "non-power additive- fuel" (LOL) and Nitrogen to lower combustion chamber temperatures.


Quote:
With either forced induction, or nitrous oxide injection, you'll want to run colder spark plugs, and extra fuel. Why? Because I said so..... jfwy. It's to deter our best friend...... detonation.
Just dumping in more fuel is not the only way to deter detonation. Any system should be properly set up and tuned to assure the proper fuel/air mixture (of course) but detonation is also effected by other things such as engine temperature, compression ratios, igntion timing and in the case of serious systems even water injection.

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Old 09-08-2006, 04:15 AM   #36
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

I vote we move it Miscellaneous Tech or Performance Mods.

Resume fire.

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Old 09-08-2006, 05:34 AM   #37
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

I vote we let it circle the thread drain and go down as quickly as possible.

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Old 09-08-2006, 10:23 AM   #38
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfman
(misc ownage)
Wow, I think that's pretty much settled now

BTW, what I said about the scale reading the same at different lattitudes... I mean a balance scale. A spring-based one like a bathroom scale would read differently, since it only measures your downward pressure and doesn't compare you to other mass. But when I say different, I mean by a small fraction of a percent. The inaccuracy of the scale (which on a cheap spring-based scale, I would say is probably at least 3-5%) is what really accounts for the difference. That, and the clothing you wear, the stuff you have in your pockets, and to be frank, however long it's been since you've taken a dump. That's where your 12 pound difference came from.

And now that I think about it, I'm sure you would weigh less at a lower altitude, just like you float up faster when you're deeper under water. With more air "falling," there's more buoyancy working against gravity. The only reason we don't float away is that we're denser than the atmosphere, unlike a helium balloon, which is less dense, so its buoyancy overcomes gravity. But that's just my guess, I don't really know how altitute affects your weight. I do know that it doesn't make you 12 pounds lighter

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Old 09-08-2006, 10:52 AM   #39
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

The reason I said fuel is not a power additive, is because if gasoline engines had the same compression ratio as a diesel engine, they could run without fuel. Diesels will run without fuel..... but only for a few short seconds until something blows.

A supercharger is not more efficient than a turbocharger, as the parasitic loss in power is greater. You know a lot, I'll give that to you, but these are the few that I KNOW for a fact, and can bet my life on.
A supercharger has to use power from the crankshaft to turn, thus, the parasitic power loss increases as boost increases....... it is about a 20%-25% powerloss to make good horsepower....... but you're right, they are easier to tune.... which is why that is my first setup.
A turbocharger is less parasitic....... and yes...... at low spool rates, it does restrict exhaust flow..... but at max spool rates, it's actually moving nearly with the exhaust due to inertia, with little resistance so that it doesn't loose speed.
I know my forced induction, had 12 weeks straight of training in it. This is why the military uses turbochargers instead of superchargers now....

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Old 09-08-2006, 12:14 PM   #40
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Default Re: Basic Engine Operations

Quote:
Originally Posted by project92SC2
The reason I said fuel is not a power additive, is because if gasoline engines had the same compression ratio as a diesel engine, they could run without fuel. Diesels will run without fuel..... but only for a few short seconds until something blows.
Huh??? If you can make any engine run without fuel, you could make millions!!! Either the thermodynamics I took in college is way off or I'm missing something here.

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