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Old 04-08-2006, 01:01 AM   #1
Aeain
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2004 ION Red Line
Default Something about the SKY Red Line.

Why did GM decide on an Air-to-Air Intercooler when the Air-to-Water intercooler(From ION Red Line) is more efficient?

...
Andrew
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Old 04-08-2006, 01:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

Probably coolant routing. Everything under the hood is cramped, so I guess air->air was the only (or most economical) choice. Also, maybe the front air dam allows more airflow on the SKY - who knows!

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Old 04-09-2006, 05:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeain
Why did GM decide on an Air-to-Air Intercooler when the Air-to-Water intercooler(From ION Red Line) is more efficient?
In looking at their configuation and the increased size of the from air dam & side inlets... take a look at the pic...

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Old 04-11-2006, 08:06 AM   #4
Red_Line Ion
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Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeain
Why did GM decide on an Air-to-Air Intercooler when the Air-to-Water intercooler(From ION Red Line) is more efficient?
who told you air to water is more efficient?Air to air is more efficient, but air to water is more compact!

Whenever you can have a large front mount air to air it will cool the charge a heck of a lot faster than water that is packed in somewhere...
ambient temp will aways be lower than the water due to the water heat soaking and such, why do most if not all HP turbo cars use air to air if water is more efficient?

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Old 04-11-2006, 08:07 AM   #5
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Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

plus air to water adds WEIGHT! Pumps, fluid, heat exchanger etc

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Old 04-11-2006, 08:54 AM   #6
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Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Line Ion
who told you air to water is more efficient?Air to air is more efficient, but air to water is more compact!
Somewhat true... BUT, the air to water is more efficient for "short" performance. Fill a air to water IC setup with ice water and it will be more efficient then an air to air... But for what 10 min??? Good for the drag strip, but not good for road racing. An air to air on the other hand is better for longer more "enduring" performance. So on a daily car that is really made for the road course rather than the drag strip the air to air is the obvious good choice.

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Old 04-11-2006, 09:10 AM   #7
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Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben98gs
Somewhat true... BUT, the air to water is more efficient for "short" performance. Fill a air to water IC setup with ice water and it will be more efficient then an air to air... But for what 10 min??? Good for the drag strip, but not good for road racing. An air to air on the other hand is better for longer more "enduring" performance. So on a daily car that is really made for the road course rather than the drag strip the air to air is the obvious good choice.
correct, but we are talking production not drag racing specific...but yes fill a air to water with ice water and bam!

Unfortunatey ours have coolant which screws that idea, lol
Altho I am working on putting a cold can just for that purpose in the water ic system...

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Old 04-11-2006, 09:44 PM   #8
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2004 ION Red Line
Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

The ION Red Line air-to-water intercooler is 80% efficient the most efficient most Air-To-Air setups is %50-60 efficient.

...
Andrew
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Old 04-12-2006, 07:45 AM   #9
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Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeain
The ION Red Line air-to-water intercooler is 80% efficient the most efficient most Air-To-Air setups is %50-60 efficient.
the limits of the rl intercooler are very low without easily upgrading the system, all in all most if not all still prefer the air/air.


"Each type of intercooler has its strength and weakness. Air-to-air units tend to require longer ducting to route the air from the turbo through the intercooler then back to the engine; this extra tubing might increase lag slightly on some engines and may also present interesting packaging challenges. Air-to-water units, however, can have significantly shorter intake plumbing; the intercooler can be placed in hot underhood areas where no airflow is present since the liquid coolant circulates to its radiator. This allows for simpler installation but at an expense of reduced cooling efficiency. Note that both kinds cool better when air is flowing through the intercooler (air-to-air) or the radiator (air-to-water); both kinds can benefit from the installation of a fan for low-speed operation. "

"air-to-water intercoolers are used either for convenience--to eliminate the possible ducting nightmare of the intake--or for drag-only vehicles where a "one shot" setup uses ice to actually drop charge air temps below ambient... for a very short while. I think it is telling that a number of street cars which featured air-to-water intercoolers from the factory--such as the GMC Syclone and Typhoon--are almost always converted to air-to-air units when upping performance is the goal. Check out an issue of Turbo magazine; you'll see these cars with huge air-to-air units mounted below the front bumber (or else behind the grill and in front of the radiator). There's a message here somewhere.... "

sorry Aeain, these are pretty much the accepted facts.....

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Old 04-12-2006, 09:07 AM   #10
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2001 SC1
Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Line Ion
the limits of the rl intercooler are very low without easily upgrading the system, all in all most if not all still prefer the air/air.


"Each type of intercooler has its strength and weakness. Air-to-air units tend to require longer ducting to route the air from the turbo through the intercooler then back to the engine; this extra tubing might increase lag slightly on some engines and may also present interesting packaging challenges. Air-to-water units, however, can have significantly shorter intake plumbing; the intercooler can be placed in hot underhood areas where no airflow is present since the liquid coolant circulates to its radiator. This allows for simpler installation but at an expense of reduced cooling efficiency. Note that both kinds cool better when air is flowing through the intercooler (air-to-air) or the radiator (air-to-water); both kinds can benefit from the installation of a fan for low-speed operation. "

"air-to-water intercoolers are used either for convenience--to eliminate the possible ducting nightmare of the intake--or for drag-only vehicles where a "one shot" setup uses ice to actually drop charge air temps below ambient... for a very short while. I think it is telling that a number of street cars which featured air-to-water intercoolers from the factory--such as the GMC Syclone and Typhoon--are almost always converted to air-to-air units when upping performance is the goal. Check out an issue of Turbo magazine; you'll see these cars with huge air-to-air units mounted below the front bumber (or else behind the grill and in front of the radiator). There's a message here somewhere.... "

sorry Aeain, these are pretty much the accepted facts.....
Very good post, and oh so true... If air to water were SOOO much better then why do all of the high horsepower turboed cars run air to air (look at the Supra's, Skylines, etc.).

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Old 04-12-2006, 04:12 PM   #11
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2004 ION Red Line
Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

Because most car companies don't spend the money for that cause they are cheap. And Most people don't even know what an Air-to-Water intercooler is.

Though, 80% Efficiency is greater then what you'd see with a Air-To-Air setup. The Air-To-Water intercooler is not limited. It'll handle 350hp easily before you would really want to upgrade then.Water conducts about 9 times the amount of heat as air. Simple chemistry tells us that an Air-To-Water is more efficient and would be better than an Air-to-Air unit.

The Lightning, Cobra, and Ford GT all use Air-To-Water intercoolers and the Ford GT has 500 base horsepower. Now superchargers put out less heat but, it applys to turbo cars.

The SKY Red Line would just need a higher flow pump (ION Red Line's is rated at 7 Gallons Per Minute), more Laminova coils and a larger exchanger. It'd be fairly low cost since they could use a smaller car radiator an existing Intake Manifold from an ION Red Line and run a brand new Coolant Pump

Check out the site for the Laminova Coils that are used in the ION Red Line.
http://www.opcon.se/index.asp?sPage=1&langID=2&cID=15

...
Andrew
2004 ION Red Line

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Old 04-12-2006, 04:25 PM   #12
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Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeain
Because most car companies don't spend the money for that cause they are cheap.
you sound like an expert....how many car companies do you run?

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Old 04-12-2006, 06:04 PM   #13
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2004 ION Red Line
Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

So since I'm not an expert it gives you the right to judge my opinions?

...
Andrew
2004 ION Red Line

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Old 04-12-2006, 06:53 PM   #14
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Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeain
So since I'm not an expert it gives you the right to judge my opinions?
of course, you have the right ot your own opinion, however, one can judge the validity of your claims and this will affect the validity of your overall argument.

hope that helps.

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Old 04-12-2006, 07:19 PM   #15
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Default Re: Something about the SKY Red Line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeain

Check out the site for the Laminova Coils that are used in the ION Red Line.
http://www.opcon.se/index.asp?sPage=1&langID=2&cID=15
Love Laminova's ECHOtech research....

Aeain, efficiency and practical use are 2 different things, in the applications these are for an air to air is preferable pure and simple.

ck your Ic fluid temp while you are driving....not too cool....

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