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Old 03-15-2006, 09:02 PM   #1
walt
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Default First oil change

Picked up my 06 two weeks ago and on the windsheild it says service at 3,000 miles. I just spoke to a mechanic today who claims I shound not let oil stay in a new engine more than several hundred miles because metal particles are floating around in the motor because of the newness of the engine. Anyone have any input on this one?

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Old 03-15-2006, 09:14 PM   #2
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Default Re: First oil change

If you did a UOA (used oil analysis) on that first changed oil, it would reveal a higher overall metals content. As would the next change and the next change after that (in gradually decreasing amounts) To answer your question, were it my car, (and I just bought a new 05' back in October) I'd ignore the OLM (Oil Life Monitor) light and change the oil at 3K~4.5K initially and then about that after that. (Reset the OLM after each change to prevent a false on) It really depends a lot on how the vehicle is used.

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Old 03-15-2006, 09:23 PM   #3
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Default Re: First oil change

At the dealership I deal with 3000 miles is fine. If anyone changes it before that, it's just their money they are spending. If it was to give you peace of mind than it's ok. Waiting until 3000 mi is just fine. With the closer tolerances of todays engines and the refined manufacturing methods there are not as many metals floating around after 300 miles like there was 25-30 years ago.I still don't trust the OLM and I change every 3000 miles.

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Old 03-15-2006, 10:49 PM   #4
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Default Re: First oil change

The filter isn't just for decoration you know. I would not worry, and just follow the 3,000mile OCI.

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Old 03-15-2006, 10:54 PM   #5
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Default Re: First oil change

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfman
If you did a UOA (used oil analysis) on that first changed oil, it would reveal a higher overall metals content. As would the next change and the next change after that (in gradually decreasing amounts) To answer your question, were it my car, (and I just bought a new 05' back in October) I'd ignore the OLM (Oil Life Monitor) light and change the oil at 3K~4.5K initially and then about that after that. (Reset the OLM after each change to prevent a false on) It really depends a lot on how the vehicle is used.

Is it just the Saturn engines or what?
The oil life gauge in todays cars are good indicators.
I use it in my 97 grandPrix and in my 04 Acura TL.
My Oil life usually goes as I drive. Highway, 7k miles
If I drive around town, about 3k-4k miles.
Save money and follow your oil life monitor. If an OLM can be used on 97 car it should be as or more reliable on a 05-06 model

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Old 03-15-2006, 11:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: First oil change

NO it is NOT just in Saturns. The oil life monitor (OLM) uses a computer driven algorythm to guess (based on number of cold starts etc..) on the condition of the oil. It's not like its doing a chemical analysis or anything, and does not take anything other than operation into consideration. (It does not even look at the cold and warm oil pressure) For your "average" driver (what the program is based on) it is probably going to be fine most of the time, but even the owner's manual tells you to IGNORE IT and change the oil more often if the vehicle is operated under "severe" conditions, OR if the light does not come on within a year. So you tell me...if the OLM is so infalliable, how come it can't "see" severe operation or the fact that a year has gone by and tell you to change the oil sooner?

My dads 92' Olds 98 had an oil life monitor...SAME PROGRAM over ten years ago.

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Old 03-16-2006, 07:42 AM   #7
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Default Re: First oil change

The monitor is good for normal conditions. If you read the owners manual they have instances which are considered severe. I do my own changes and since I no longer do that much mileage I change my oil and filter every 3 months. The filter on the 2.2 is real dirty when I change it.

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Old 03-16-2006, 09:18 AM   #8
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Default Re: First oil change

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfman
...but even the owner's manual tells you to IGNORE IT and change the oil more often if the vehicle is operated under "severe" conditions, OR if the light does not come on within a year...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my VUE's manual makes no mention of severe or normal driving. All it says is to follow the light, except in the case of accidental reset.

Dealers and oil change places will always write 3,000 mile intervals on the stickers. They make more money that way.

It certainly won't hurt to make your first oil change sooner, but I'm under the believe that if it really was necessary, it would be in the service schedule in the owner's manual.

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Old 03-16-2006, 09:54 AM   #9
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Default Re: First oil change

Quote:
Originally Posted by spencerb
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my VUE's manual makes no mention of severe or normal driving. All it says is to follow the light, except in the case of accidental reset.

Dealers and oil change places will always write 3,000 mile intervals on the stickers. They make more money that way.

It certainly won't hurt to make your first oil change sooner, but I'm under the believe that if it really was necessary, it would be in the service schedule in the owner's manual.
You might want to read it more carefully...3K miles is the obvious default change interval...

From the 2005 Vue owner's handbook:

Engine Oil Life System
When to Change Engine Oil
Your vehicle has a computer system that lets you know when to change the engine oil and filter. This is based on engine revolutions and engine temperature, and not on mileage. Based on driving conditions, the mileage at which an oil change will be indicated can vary considerably. For the oil life system to work properly, you must reset the system every time the oil is changed.

When the system has calculated that oil life has been diminished, it will indicate that an oil change is necessary. A change engine oil light will come on. See Change Engine Oil Light . Change your oil as soon as possible within the next 600 miles (1 000 km). It is possible that, if you are driving under the best conditions, the oil life system may not indicate that an oil change is necessary for over a year. However, your engine oil and filter must be changed at least once a year and at this time the system must be reset. Your retailer has trained service people who will perform this work using genuine Saturn parts and reset the system. It is also important to check your oil regularly and keep it at the proper level.

If the system is ever reset accidentally, you must change your oil at 3,000 miles (5 000 km) since your last oil change. Remember to reset the oil life system whenever the oil is changed.

How to Reset the Engine Oil Life System
The Engine Oil Life System calculates when to change your engine oil and filter based on vehicle use. Anytime your oil is changed, reset the system so it can calculate when the next oil change is required. If a situation occurs where you change your oil prior to a change engine oil light being turned on, reset the system.

After changing the engine oil, reset the system by performing the following steps:

Turn the ignition key to RUN with the engine off.
Fully press and release the accelerator pedal three times within five seconds. If the change engine oil light is flashing, the system is reset. The light will flash for up to 30 seconds or until the ignition is turned off.
If the light comes on again and stays on for 30 seconds at the next ignition cycle, it did not reset. You will need to reset the system again.

...
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Old 03-16-2006, 10:37 AM   #10
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Default Re: First oil change

Maybe not in the manual but on the website (In my saturn)

Change engine oil & filter every 3-mo/3000-miles under dusty or high humidity conditions, towing a trailer, or if using a cargo carrier
Otherwise, change engine oil & filter every 6-months/7500-miles or when oil monitor light is on

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Old 03-16-2006, 12:28 PM   #11
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Default Re: First oil change

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfman
You might want to read it more carefully...3K miles is the obvious default change interval...
Yep, that's how I remember it. So I was correct in saying that the book makes no mention of severe or normal oil change schedules. So the light takes into account "severe" driving and will come on at the appropriate time. 3K is what I would consider the lowest possible change interval.

I came across the most in-depth explanation of the oil light on Bob's oil site today. It was written by a GM engineer who worked on that project. It makes me feel even better about relying on the light.

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Old 03-16-2006, 12:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: First oil change

The air filters in my car are dirty before 30,000. The cabin filters look bad when I change them every 6 months (Suppose to go a year). I don't trust the Oil Monitor as mush as I trust egineers that can't even design a rear end the collapes, Washer fluid nossles that blow off (4 times) dorr handles on the L that brak off etc. You should see how dirty oilfilters are on my L and my VUE on the 2.2 when I change them. With the timing belt issues on the L 2.2 I'm definately doing every 3,000 miles or 3 months.

Near me they do gravel mining and I can go through some dusty areas.

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Old 03-16-2006, 01:37 PM   #13
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Default Re: First oil change

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricksLS1
The air filters in my car are dirty before 30,000. The cabin filters look bad when I change them every 6 months (Suppose to go a year)...

Near me they do gravel mining and I can go through some dusty areas.
Hence the reason your air filters are getting dirty sooner than normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricksLS1
I don't trust the Oil Monitor as mush as I trust egineers that can't even design a rear end the collapes, Washer fluid nossles that blow off (4 times) dorr handles on the L that brak off etc.
It's a good thing that the powertrain lubrication engineers had nothing to do with those items!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricksLS1
You should see how dirty oilfilters are on my L and my VUE on the 2.2 when I change them.
The appearance of used oil and filters is not a direct function of its actual condition. The following is from Quaker State's web site:

"Myth #2
If the oil turns dark or black quickly, it's no good.
You can tell the condition of oil by the look, smell or color of it.
Dirty (black) motor oil means the oil is breaking down.

Fact
A common misconception is that high quality motor oil should come out of an engine looking clean at the time of an oil change. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the oil is doing its job of cleaning the engine, then it should be dirty when it is drained. Quaker State® motor oil will start looking dirty a short time after it is put to use. In the case of diesel engines, the oil will look dirty within a few hours of operation. These are signs that the motor oil is doing its job of keeping soot, dirt, and other combustion contaminants in suspension to be carried to the filter or removed from the crankcase when the oil is changed. Quaker State® motor oils have been formulated to hold these contaminants in suspension until they can be removed with an oil and filter change."
Quote:
Originally Posted by ricksLS1
With the timing belt issues on the L 2.2 I'm definately doing every 3,000 miles or 3 months.
Even though the chances of a timing belt failure are slim, I think it's wise to take extra precautions.

Read this about the oil life system. It sheds some new light on the subject:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=010523#000000

...
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Old 03-16-2006, 02:41 PM   #14
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Default Re: First oil change

Quote:
Originally Posted by spencerb
Hence the reason your air filters are getting dirty sooner than normal.



It's a good thing that the powertrain lubrication engineers had nothing to do with those items!


The appearance of used oil and filters is not a direct function of its actual condition. The following is from Quaker State's web site:

"Myth #2
If the oil turns dark or black quickly, it's no good.
You can tell the condition of oil by the look, smell or color of it.
Dirty (black) motor oil means the oil is breaking down.

Fact
A common misconception is that high quality motor oil should come out of an engine looking clean at the time of an oil change. Nothing could be further from the truth. If the oil is doing its job of cleaning the engine, then it should be dirty when it is drained. Quaker State® motor oil will start looking dirty a short time after it is put to use. In the case of diesel engines, the oil will look dirty within a few hours of operation. These are signs that the motor oil is doing its job of keeping soot, dirt, and other combustion contaminants in suspension to be carried to the filter or removed from the crankcase when the oil is changed. Quaker State® motor oils have been formulated to hold these contaminants in suspension until they can be removed with an oil and filter change."


Even though the chances of a timing belt failure are slim, I think it's wise to take extra precautions.

Read this about the oil life system. It sheds some new light on the subject:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=010523#000000
I operate my vehicle in severe conditions so I do oil changes more often. I have also had a time where a tech did not change my filter (A Saturn tech) and a failure of the valve in the oil cap housing that chrused a filter on my L . Next time I do a change I'll take a picture of an oil filter that has been through 3 months of use. The car doctor on radio recommends 3,000 oil changes and I agree with his recommendation. No I do not trust egineers or car companies. many extend maintenace recomedations so they say their costs of use are less (dealers recommened shorter intervals sometimes to make more).

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Old 03-16-2006, 08:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: First oil change

Well just a few more comments and then I'll be quiet as the well indoctrinated are seldomn swayed.

1. Oil is CHEAP, Engines are expensive.
2. Minimal maintenance makes "cost of ownership" numbers look good for the reviewers and car info sites, but are not necessarily what is best for the car.
3. The amount of maintenance performed to a vehicle is directly proportional to how long that vehicle lasts and how well it performs 99% of the time.

On a side note:

I change the oil in my 97' SL2 at ~4500 mile intervals,(Mobil 1) the Vue will get the same regardless of what the OLM says.... Both use DOHC chain driven 4 cylinder MPFI engines.....built by the same company....one uses the odometer and the calendar for OLM's....the other has what is often referred to as an "Idiot light".

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Old 03-16-2006, 11:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: First oil change

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfman
Well just a few more comments and then I'll be quiet as the well indoctrinated are seldomn swayed.

1. Oil is CHEAP, Engines are expensive.
2. Minimal maintenance makes "cost of ownership" numbers look good for the reviewers and car info sites, but are not necessarily what is best for the car.
3. The amount of maintenance performed to a vehicle is directly proportional to how long that vehicle lasts and how well it performs 99% of the time.

".
Well put. It is not that I don't think the design engineers know what they are doing, the points that Wolfman lists here say it all for me as well. I know one thing, there is no way in h#11 that changing the oil more often than the book reccomends can hurt and IMHO it is just too cheap not to do it. BUT I CAN tell you that not changing it as you should is just asking for engine trouble and on these engines, quite possibly a timing chain problem. So you decide, a few bucks a little more often than recomended, or a lot of bucks later.

I'll even go out on a limb here. I would be willing to bet that most of the members here that are driving Saturns with well over 100K to 200K miles on them and not having any problems are those who AT THE VERY LEAST, change their oil at the recomended interval or sooner. Mine is at 2500 to 3000 miles which at the current rate right now equates to about every 1 1/2 months.

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Old 03-17-2006, 10:25 AM   #17
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Default Re: First oil change

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfman
...one uses the odometer and the calendar for OLM's....the other has what is often referred to as an "Idiot light".
Which of the following is the best measure of oil quality depletion:

1)Time
2)Mileage
3)Time and Mileage
3)Analysis of Engine Stress and Amount of Use.

As long as you assume that no matter how severe you drive the car, X miles is the minimum for an oil change interval, and you stick to that interval, you'll be good. The problem is that neither time nor mileage are the best indicators of oil quality. I could set my cruise at 45 and drive in circles around a track without accelerating or decelerating for thousands of miles, and my oil will be in much better shape than if I drove like a maniac all around town with many short trips and cold starts.

It's hard to argue that mileage is a better indication of oil quality than the oil life monitor. The monitor takes so many more factors into consideration. The way you drive for 3K miles might be much different than the way I drive for 3K miles. What you consider "severe" driving may be what I call normal, everyday cruising.

The best method is to have a used oil analysis done and develop your own schedule based on your car and your driving habits. But wait, there's more to this story: GM took a car just like yours, drove it in several different ways, including driving habits similar to yours, and analyzed the oil. They did this countless times and developed algorithms for the monitor to predict when oil quality was low with tight precision. Of course, there is a larger-than-advertised safety factor built in. If their monitor led to engine damage, the lawsuits would cost them a fortune!

The problem with the monitor is that it generally calls for changes at a longer mileage than we are used to. Now, let's say that the monitor came on at 3K miles, and you are used to changing your oil at 4500 miles. NOW would you trust and follow the light?

If the light came on at around the mileage we usually do changes, then people everywhere would say it's accurate. But ONLY because it usually recommends LONGER intervals than we FEEL like doing, then it can't be trusted?

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Old 03-17-2006, 10:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: First oil change

As I said...the well indoctrinated are seldomn swayed.

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Old 03-19-2006, 02:20 AM   #19
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Default Re: First oil change

BTW: Honda recommends the oil in the SAME 3.5L engine used in the VUE, in the Odessey Mini van, be changed every 7500 miles, the filter every 15,000. (No OLM needed) Under "normal operating conditions" So tell me, who knows more about that engine...the company that designed and built it, or that little light on the dash?

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Old 03-19-2006, 08:26 PM   #20
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Dazed Re: First oil change

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfman
who knows more about that engine...the company that designed and built it, or that little light on the dash?
Probably the light.

Personally I change the oil and filter every 3000 miles. I'm sure it's overkill, but as Wolfman said- oil is cheaper than a new engine/car.


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