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Old 08-23-2005, 01:28 PM   #1
Anjey
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Default Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

I am getting a P0401 code in 99 SC2 and the freeze frame shows:

Load Value 18%
Temp 183
Short Term Fuel Trim 11.7%
Long Term Fuel Trim -6.3%
MAP 8 in. hg
RPM 1693
speed MPH 40
Throttle 0%

The EGR valve looks good. I mean very good. The pintle is turning easily, goes all the way in with no effort. It is clean.

So why is it happening?

The car sets a code ONLY when decelerating with the gas pedal released!
I am unsure what to do. Any advice is appreciated.

Can anyone tell me what should be the MAP reading with a properly working EGR under such load conditions (closed loop, normal temp, zero throttle, 40 MPH)?

There is also a small leak in the muffler after the second catalyst.
(it is not related - but who knows?)

Last edited by Anjey; 08-23-2005 at 01:38 PM..

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Old 08-23-2005, 01:42 PM   #2
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

Freeze frame I got 6 inches under similar conditions on my 96 SOHC. You would expect much more; it could be "six inches" is just an arbitrary figure, like a load average of 20% is for a decellerating car. Plumb a Tee into your PCV line and use a manual vacuum gauge.

Last edited by eljefino; 08-23-2005 at 01:51 PM..

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Old 08-23-2005, 01:52 PM   #3
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

You had a lower load value.... That's weird.
Anyway it could be due to a different throttle screw setting.
I think. Or just the carbon deposits on the throttle body.
But the difference is over 20%. Hmm.

Is the EGR set to "full open" at these conditions?

If it fails to open, the HG inch reading should be lower. Right?
I would understand the EGR failure if the HG inch reading was bellow yours.-)))

I do not understand whats happening!
I feel this valve works fine, however something gives the PCM signal it is not.

Maybe the EGR is faulty on the electric side?

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Old 08-23-2005, 02:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

Are you certain that the EGR flow passages are not clogged? The EGR flow diagnostic would set during the decel fuel cutoff situation with significantly blocked passages. The diagnostic test would be looking for threshold level change in manifold pressure when the pintle is opened. If it doesn't see enough of a change, it sets a fault. I believe that is how the diagnostic works.

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Old 08-23-2005, 09:35 PM   #5
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

I have found that normally this code means that the EGR is not opening the amount that it has been commaneded to by the PCM. Normal cure for me lately has beed to repalce the EGR valve and to clean out the passages while the valve is off. The Tech 2 is able to command the EGR open and show the commanded opening and the actual opening. When this code is present the actual and commanded do not match closely at all.

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Old 08-23-2005, 10:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

EGR flow is monitored by the PCM by it looking for a reaction in the FRONT O2 sensor in responce to the command given to the EGR valve. The linear electronic EGR valve sends a return signal to the PCM indicating the relative position of the step motor and hence how far open (or closed) the EGR valve is in responce to the PCM command. The PCM expects to see (within a set of given parameters) a change in the O2 sensor reading (change in exhaust gas make up) after the EGR valve is commanded open or closed. If it doesn't, or that change is not within the expected parameters, a code will be set based on the skewed data. Generally a "insufficient flow" code will be set by:

1.Faulty EGR valve (sticking, or "lying" to the PCM about the actual valve position)
2.Faulty electrical connection at the EGR valve (causing false data)
3.Clogged EGR passages
4. Bad read from the MAP, or TPS, causing the PCM to misinterpret the EGR data based on faulty operational data from the other sensors
5. (Very rarely) A marginally "slow" O2 sensor. (PCM does not "see" the change in exhaust make up quick enough and interprets that as poor EGR flow.)

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Old 03-26-2011, 10:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

We got a PO401 code today, but the entire data picture I got from the scanner has me scratching my head. This old thread was the only thing close to it I could find, so I am starting here. 2001 SL1 Saturne, 196,xxx miles, with no other issues.
Here is the freeze frame data from the scanner, word for word:
PO401 -Secondary Air injector system
Air Status-off
Fuel sys 1-OL-drive
Fuel sys 2-CL-Fault

Calc load % - 48.24%
ECT *F - 174
STFT B1 - 0.00
LTFT B! - 10.16
MAP - 16.54" Hg
STFT B2 -
LTFT B2 -
Engine - 947 RPM
VHL speed - 4 mph
TPS % -0.00
The problem occurred in slow heavy traffic, stop and go.

This:
PO401 -Secondary Air injector system
Puzzles me, as the books say PO401 is EGR flow, not secondary air flow, but the scanner said "PO401 -Secondary Air injector system"


The rest of the data makes no sense to me yet either.

I cleared the code, and it has nearly completed the relearn with no new codes yet. There was no data on bank 2 fuel trims, I guess because there is no bank 2? This a 1.9 L 4 banger.

So I am trying to decide if it is a problem with the EGR system, or the secondary air feed to the exhaust? I see what looks like an old style EGR valve and electric solenoid connected to an electric air pump and the exhaust manifold on the front side. Which seems to there for adding air for the catalytic converter to the exhaust on cold starts?

Then I see what looks like a very large round electric linear EGR valve (stepper motor valve???) in the center under the hood on the drivers side attached to the head on top of the engine block and to the intake manifold.

I am use to working on older stuff (60-90's era), so some of this is a little new to me.

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Old 03-26-2011, 10:45 PM   #8
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

To attempt an easy fix do this. Fully warmup engine and then shut of. Remove EGR and gasket. With hood open and not in the garage start the engine. The engine will promptly revup to the rev limiter(~4000RPM) and if you are lucky the exhaust pressure will blow the carbon out of the exhaust to EGR port and the manifold vacuum will clean out the intake side. Shut off engine and thoroughly clean the EGR valve and reinstall. To clear the codes remove the PCM B fuse for a couple of minutes and replace. Drive it and see if the code comes back.

This will be a bit loud and smoky so plan ahead.

The 401 is the EGR test flow. Sometimes the software writers make a colossal blunder.

The AIR injection code is 410...

The round thing on the left end of the head with the cable stuck in the top of it is the EGR.

Search YouTube for richpin06a saturn and then scan the long list for EGR cleaning to find how to clean the EGR internals.

Last edited by OldNuc; 03-26-2011 at 10:51 PM..

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Old 03-27-2011, 10:22 AM   #9
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt5lRTt6BsU

Thanks.

Few questions still. It shows fuel system 2 CL-fault, is that because there is no fuel system 2? Only a fuel system one?

I am guessing the rest of the data such as:

Fuel sys 1-OL-drive
Engine - 947 RPM
VHL speed - 4 mph
TPS % -0.00

implies it was in open loop during deceleration? Is that normal? What about the 48% load? Just trying to mine all the data! Thanks.

Last edited by Ecomike; 03-27-2011 at 10:32 AM..

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Old 03-27-2011, 06:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

OK, got my answer, there is no bank 2 on a straight 4 cylinder so ignore the fake data on Bank 2.

I cleaned the EGR and the ports. Too easy! LOL. But now I have pending PO133 slow O2 sensor code. It may have gotten some carbon in / on the O2 sensor when cleaning the port with the EGR removed and the started up. All the other monitors have reset except for the EV monitor (second O2 sensor Catalyst efficiency???) and the pending O2 sensor code for the first O2 sensor (pre-cat) after a good 30-40 minute relearn test drive per the GM relearn driving procedures.

I noticed that the O2 sensor is a single wire sensor, and the harness connectors look like OEM connectors, but I am surprised not to see 2 or 3 wires on the sensor, for a heater, ie. HEGO sensor?

Did the 2001 Saturn SL1 not use a HEGO O2 sensor?

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Old 03-27-2011, 06:56 PM   #11
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

Only the rear sensor is heated the front is an unheated sensor and it is heated on startup by the AIR system and preCAT. The P0133 will clear as that was probably from the no EGR run. The evap will not go ready unless the fuel level in the tank is between ~25% and ~75%. Takes a couple of cycles to reset the 133 code after the condition clears and it will auto reset. The open loop and high load are a bit strange but being freeze frame data it can be strange and still OK. You can monitor live data and see if it is credible. That would probably be a good idea anyway. The EGR test runs when you do a long closed throttle deceleration like a down hill exit ramp.

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Old 03-27-2011, 09:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Only the rear sensor is heated the front is an unheated sensor and it is heated on startup by the AIR system and preCAT. The P0133 will clear as that was probably from the no EGR run. The evap will not go ready unless the fuel level in the tank is between ~25% and ~75%. Takes a couple of cycles to reset the 133 code after the condition clears and it will auto reset. The open loop and high load are a bit strange but being freeze frame data it can be strange and still OK. You can monitor live data and see if it is credible. That would probably be a good idea anyway. The EGR test runs when you do a long closed throttle deceleration like a down hill exit ramp.

Hmm, I ran the engine cold for only about 5 seconds, 3 times to clear out the carbon, 10 seconds at most the 3rd time. I doubt it had time to even think of testing the O2 circuit then, so not sure I buy that theory (but thanks anyway!).

"Heated by precat", what precat? Are you saying the air pump feed on warm up burns the rich fuel feed in the exhaust manifold, precat, during open loop, and thus heats the O2 sensor?

I think the gas tank was, and is pretty full, so that might explain the EV monitor delay. Thanks

I may reset it and redo the re-learn process.

Heating the rear O2 sensor and not the front sounds backwards to me, but this air pump, multiple valve set up on the Ex-manifold is also odd to me, so what do I know, LOL. I have been driving late 80's AMC jeeps for too long, LOL.

I think she was in traffic, the kind that is hurry up and go and hurry up and stop, and or slow down, might explain the odd high % load number at 4 mph, with TPS at 0%. She also said it started acting strange, shifting weird, surging, when it thew the code, so who knows. It has driven fine since I cleared the PO401 code.

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Old 03-27-2011, 10:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecomike View Post
Hmm, I ran the engine cold for only about 5 seconds, 3 times to clear out the carbon, 10 seconds at most the 3rd time. I doubt it had time to even think of testing the O2 circuit then, so not sure I buy that theory (but thanks anyway!).

It is very quick.

"Heated by precat", what precat? Are you saying the air pump feed on warm up burns the rich fuel feed in the exhaust manifold, precat, during open loop, and thus heats the O2 sensor?

Look at your exhaust manifold. See that section that looks like an elliptical can right below the 4 branches and right below the O2 sensor and above the outlet flange? There is a preCAT in there that heats the O2 sensor when the car starts. If you start and stop the car quick enough a couple of times it will give you a 133 code, maybe.

I think the gas tank was, and is pretty full, so that might explain the EV monitor delay. Thanks

Just burn off the fuel, it will be fine.

I may reset it and redo the re-learn process.

No reason to, just wait.

Heating the rear O2 sensor and not the front sounds backwards to me, but this air pump, multiple valve set up on the Ex-manifold is also odd to me, so what do I know, LOL. I have been driving late 80's AMC jeeps for too long, LOL.

Well, now you are in the semi modern world of the over regulated tail pipe.

I think she was in traffic, the kind that is hurry up and go and hurry up and stop, and or slow down, might explain the odd high % load number at 4 mph, with TPS at 0%. She also said it started acting strange, shifting weird, surging, when it thew the code, so who knows. It has driven fine since I cleared the PO401 code.
Yes 2nd hand info from the non mechanically inclined is a bit difficult to figure out. Patience and daily driving will get all the monitors set ready and if the 133 refuses to leave then it will be time for a Denso or NGK direct fit replacement. IIRC the 133 code will hold out the AIR test.

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Old 03-29-2011, 12:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

Last drive took out the PO133 pending code like you said it would!

Nice call!

She is back in 75-100 mpd DD service!

Thanks for the help!!!

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Old 03-29-2011, 04:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

good!

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Old 06-27-2011, 09:51 PM   #16
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

We got a new code about 10 days ago (same 2001, SL1 Saturn), I forget the number, but it was a "tiny vacuum leak somewhere detected" message, about 2 weeks after passing the annual Gestapo inspections. I replaced the gas cap, and the code cleared itself. Now about 4 days later we have P0410 code? Any ideas where to start?

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Old 06-27-2011, 10:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

Yes, start here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIrmkxj6wJE

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Old 06-27-2011, 10:54 PM   #18
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

data in ur first post shows that ur coolant temp at 174? should be at 195 degrees if been running around for a while otherwise its a new thermostat time...
i hope im right oldnuc and he has the proper pn for the stat i remember as a stant ...

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Old 06-27-2011, 11:01 PM   #19
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinRevver View Post
data in ur first post shows that ur coolant temp at 174? should be at 195 degrees if been running around for a while otherwise its a new thermostat time...
i hope im right oldnuc and he has the proper pn for the stat i remember as a stant ...
That was a freeze frame data point from 4 months ago, 3 prior codes ago, eons ago, LOL. T-stat is fine. I suspect it is more carbon junk floating around. Have you guys ever tried Gumout or throttle body cleaner, aerosol, to de-carbon head, valves and ports and tubes.....Linear EGR, etc, in the Saturn engines?

The you tube link is great, looks fast easy, ..thanks OldNuc

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Old 06-27-2011, 11:16 PM   #20
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Default Re: Weird EGR problem. Code P0401 "insufficient flow".

I recently had the same code and followed Richpin's video. Ended up the metal line was clogged leaving the diverter valve to the engine exhaust manifold> Easy fix and for once a cheap one as well.

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