SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-24-2005, 06:14 AM   #1
sg1junkie
New Member
sg1junkie is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2

1996 SL2
1995 SL2
Question SL2 timing chain guide broke

96 SL2 with 192,000 miles. Sudden tapping noise under hood followed, in a couple days with bucking and stall out. Try a oil filter change and oil. Engine runs better but after it's warmed up it starts bucking. It's about 3 days after a snow storm which usually puts snow under the gas tank door. Gas gets lower and the bucking starts, I think it's water in the gas so I add a water-remover additive and an oil additive to quiet the lifters. Engine runs a little better until I go up hill then it starts bucking again. I take a serious look under the hood ie; remove valve cover. The valve cover has a hole in it above the timing chain and the chain guide is laying in pieces under the valve cover. I removed one large piece of metal and about half of the plastic part that sits on the the guide. Where did the rest of the plastic go? I replaced the chain guide but after reading these forums I wonder if the guide broke because the chain is worn and hitting the guide. Any suggestions where to go now. I'm guessing the plastic from the guide is now down in the oil pan. Should I be afraid to put it back together and drive it or have I done enough. Also could the hole in the valve cover be causing the loss of power going uphill or have I already fried something? I need help fast.

sg1junkie

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sg1junkie's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sg1junkie reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sg1junkie is offline  
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 04-24-2005, 08:18 AM   #2
itsmesillybubba
Senior Member
itsmesillybubba is on a distinguished road
 
itsmesillybubba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 1,128
 

2006 ION-3 Quad Coupe
Default Re: SL2 timing chain guide broke

If I were you. I would replace the chain, guide, tensioner and anything else associated. Also I would pull off the oil pan. No doubt there is something laying in the pan. Hopefully you didnt do any damage to the rest of the engine.

...
Friendship is like peeing your pants, everyone can see it, but only you can feel the true warmth.
My 95 SL1 is gone :(

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to itsmesillybubba's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help itsmesillybubba reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
itsmesillybubba is offline  
Old 04-24-2005, 09:15 AM   #3
Applefool
Master Member
Applefool is on a distinguished road
 
Applefool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rochester, Ny
Posts: 2,588
 

2006 ION Red Line
Default Re: SL2 timing chain guide broke

Same thing just happened to my friends 94 SL2. Found the chain tensioner had exploaded. Parts of it were found in the oil pan. The valve cover gasket has a large hole above the timing chain. He picked up the whole timing kit and we're looking for a valve cover. Hoping for the best, but the chain was loose enough to allow for the cam sprockets to skip a tooth. Hopefully the engine will still be okay.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Applefool's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Applefool reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Applefool is offline  
Old 04-24-2005, 03:44 PM   #4
schultp
Member
schultp is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 220
Default Re: SL2 timing chain guide broke

The Saturn 1.9L engine is an interference design. This means that if the timing is appreciably off the valves will strike the pistons. This can result in damaged valves and/or pistons. When my timing chain, guides, and tensioner went south I had to undergo a full engine rebuild. However, others with more experience will have to chime in and give an opinion as to the likelihood of damage if you skipped only one tooth as you mention.

If you have to remove the valve cover and timing cover to replace the tensioner, guides, cam sprockets, crankshaft sprocket and timing chain (the normal items in a timing chain kit) it would be a perfect time to pull the head and have a machine shop do a valve job. Also, if you have the timing cover off you should replace the oil pump which resides in the cover. Since this is a labor intensive project you should make any other preventive maintenance replacements while you have the cover off.

Just my $0.02.

Paul.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to schultp's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help schultp reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
schultp is offline  
Old 04-24-2005, 08:50 PM   #5
wolfman
Super Member
wolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of light
 
wolfman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 12,068
 
Default Re: SL2 timing chain guide broke

If you had skipped a tooth, the engine would be trashed by now. The camshaft to crankshaft (valve timing) is off because of the SLACK in the chain.

STOP DRIVING THE CAR NOW!!!

You need to REPLACE the timing chain and related parts NOW and drop the oil pan to remove and residual pieces that may have found their way in there.

I cannot warn you strongly enough Continue to drive the car as is, and you WILL DESTROY THE ENGINE. This needs to be fixed NOW

...
Old Saturns never die, people KILL them, so check your damn oil!
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." Albert Einstein

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to wolfman's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help wolfman reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
wolfman is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 02:38 AM   #6
sg1junkie
New Member
sg1junkie is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2

1996 SL2
1995 SL2
Default Re: SL2 timing chain guide broke

Thanks for the quick response. I will definitely be towing the car to a mechanic. My husband wanted to just put it back together but as I mentioned, after reading these posts I got worried and he now agrees with me and you folks.
I fixed the holes in the valve cover with JB Weld, inside and out. A Used cover from the junk yard goes for $75.
I donít have a mechanic as I usually do all my own jobs, radiator, water pump, alternator, ignition coil, cooling fan and charge the AC. My daughters have done the brakes several times with my husbandís guidance and Iíve also rebuilt a motorcycle carburetor. I say this because the next questions I need some input on as I donít trust mechanics. I donít want to fall for a mechanic telling me my muffler oil needs changing and that it will cost $1000. lol. Iím trying to understand why the car seemed to run ok on level surfaces but buck going up hill. I know the load is greater on the transmission and the engine when going up hill. I guess there could be other problems going on at the same time as the SES light has been on forever.I never said the chain slipped a tooth but is that what you folks were saying was possibly the cause for the loss of power going up hill? Could the holes in the valve cover add to that or is the timing now off just enough to fail in the power stroke but not seize up? Any opinions?
What are the movement allowances for the timing chain if it is correctly tensioned? Should the chain move at all when pushed or if it does move, how much should it move?

Thanks again,

Sg1junkie

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to sg1junkie's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help sg1junkie reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
sg1junkie is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 04:03 AM   #7
wolfman
Super Member
wolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of lightwolfman is a glorious beacon of light
 
wolfman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 12,068
 
Default Re: SL2 timing chain guide broke

You should not be able to move the chain AT ALL between the camshaft gears on the top of the engine. (Up and down, it WILL move if the gears/engine are turned) The tensioner will take up basically all the slack when it is released, though it is possible to get some inward movement of the chain about midway between the crankshaft and camshafts with the timing chain cover removed.
Price that cam cover elsewhere! $75 is REDICULOUS. (Try 6thplanetusedparts.com for one)
At this point you need to have the timing chain, guide and tensioner replaced. Provided you get the parts from SATURN (aftermarket parts are to be avoided for this repair...trust me on that one) there should be no fitment issues. If you can, get the timing chain "kit" online from one of the board sponsors. One of them still sold the "kit" though which one eludes me at this point. (It was available for a LOWER PRICE than your local Saturn store will charge) Another board member may know. The "kit" will include EVERYTHING needed for this repair except the cam cover gasket and the RTV to reseal the oil pan and timing chain cover, and the front oil seal for the crankshaft. (There are NO oil pan or timing cover gaskets...just RTV) I would strongly recommend you remove and clean out the oil pan at this point. Who knows what could be floating around in there, and it is not that difficult to do. As ammunition for whomever you select to do the work for you, ALL THESE REPAIRS can be done WITHOUT REMOVING THE ENGINE. (It is also a VERY DOABLE driveway job that requires practically NO "special tools as others will attest) The "kit" ran in the $150-$200 range when last I purchased one. Make SURE whomever does the work has done this on a SATURN before! There are a few VERY IMPORTANT nuances that must be done when doing this repair on these cars.

As far as your "bucking" question. When the drivetrain is loaded up, it is transferred through the wheels, to the driveaxles, through the transaxle and eventually to the crankshaft. When resistance increases to the crankshaft turning, and the timing chain has excessive slack, it tends to "jerk" (for lack of a better analogy) rather than "flow" (again for lack of a better analogy) as it travels around the timing gears. This cause the crank to cam (valve) timing to be in a state of constant change...hense the power loss and "bucking" sensation as the PCM tries (in vain) to compensate by altering ignition timing and fuel delivery in responce.

NOTE: Your cost to DIY this repair will be in the $300 or so range. If you elect to have the job done by someone who knows what they are doing and has done it before, figure on spending $800-$900 parts and labor. (average) It takes me about 6~8 casual hours to do this in someone's driveway....add another 4 hours or so to do the oil pan (right) so figure it to be a weekend job if you decide to DIY.

...
Old Saturns never die, people KILL them, so check your damn oil!
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." Albert Einstein

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to wolfman's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help wolfman reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
wolfman is offline  
Old 04-25-2005, 08:19 AM   #8
kickarse
Member
kickarse is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Springfield, MA
Posts: 253
Default Re: SL2 timing chain guide broke

Great info wolfman.. perhaps you can come to my house and hold my hand through my engine rebuild heh...

...
02 Saturn L200 - 156k miles - Black on Black
- HIT! 96 Saturn SL2 - 172k miles - Fire Red
- SOLD 97 Saturn SL1 - 126k miles - Green/Brown Speckle

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to kickarse's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help kickarse reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
kickarse is offline  
Closed Thread



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is there a guide to replace timing chain on 2.2 ecotec kim_lombard L-Series Tech 13 07-27-2008 07:52 PM
Upper timing chain guide. 95_SL2 S-Series Tech 8 10-23-2007 09:43 PM
need timing chain guide for 2002 engine meseville S-Series Tech 6 04-14-2006 10:18 PM
lw200 timing chain broke kathie L-Series General 9 01-10-2006 06:41 PM
Timing Chain Guide Noise jeff92sl2 Miscellaneous Tech 7 07-11-2000 09:19 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:07 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.