Advice Requested: Tips for Overhauling a 96 DOHC SL2?

[Razorbak]

Hello, guys/gals. Great forum! Glad I signed up.

I'm looking for advice and tips for overhauling my 96 DOHC SL2 (manual tranny).

My car has ~70K miles, drives well, and the body/interior is in excellent shape for it's age. It's using a bit of oil, but it's probably leaking more than it's burning. It clearly has an oil pan leak and possible other leaks around the side of the engine, but space is a bit tight to see exactly where the other leaks may be located. The plugs appear to be covered with black soot around the outside ring (see pic below). I suspect the combustion chambers are pretty carbonized, too.

I think it's running a bit rich, too. Although it's passed emmissions inspections each year that I've lived in Illinois, there are dark black sooty deposits visible at the tip of the exhaust. I cleaned the throat of the throttle body pretty thoroughly earlier this year (it was very heavily coated with dark sooty carbon), since the accelarator peddle was sticking and affecting drivability. That cured the drivability problem. I also replaced the PCV valve with an OEM part from Saturn, thinking that might help reduce the amount of oil carrying over into the combustion chamber.

I've also been having a problem getting the oil filler cap back in lately. Seems there is some milky looking goop building up, and I'm not sure how to diagnose that symptom, but the cap sure is hard to get back on nowadays.

I just performed a compression test this afternoon, and the initial pressure tests on each cylinder were pretty consistent across the board, but a bit on the high side compared to acceptable factory specs of 185-205 psi, with a minimum allowable pressure of 180 psi...

Dry Compression Test Results
---------------------------------------
Cylinder 1: 212 psi
Cylinder 2: 218 psi
Cylinder 3: 210 psi
Cylinder 4: 210 psi

Wet Compression Test Results
----------------------------------------
Cylinder 1: 250 psi
Cylinder 2: 250 psi
Cylinder 3: 250 psi
Cylinder 4: 240 psi

Unfortunately, the hose on the spark plug adapter developed a blister and sprung a slow leak, so I was unable to get reliable leak-down results, even though the pressure gauge gave good clear readings at peak pressure after at least ten revolutions on each cylinder test.

I've got most of the tools that I think I'll need in a fairly well-stocked home garage (metric, SAE, Torx sockets, drivers, combination/offset wrenches, and two calibrated torque wrenches), but may need to pick up some specialty items (pullers, etc). I've also got a 4-post lift that should make things a bit easier.

Since I've got a lift, but don't have an engine hoist at present, I'm thinking about dropping the engine out the bottom of the car instead of trying to pull it out from above. I know this is the recommended procedure for an automatic tranny car, but not sure how easy it will be for a manual tranny car. The AllDataDIY procedures available online suggest that dropping the engine out the bottom is the recommended route, but they don't differentiate between transmission types.

Anyway, I'm sure I will have more detailed questions as time goes by, but let me start with some basic ones first:

1) Can I get a decent overhaul gasket set for my Saturn from a NAPA auto parts store this weekend, or should I wait for the local Saturn parts department to open on Monday? (I'd like to get started on this project tomorrow, if possible, since I've got the entire day free.)

2) Based on what I've stated above, do you think I can get decent results from a basic overhaul of the engine, plus maybe replacing the rings and valve seals, instead of doing a complete rebuild?

3) Should I plan on dropping the engine out the bottom or try to rent an engine hoist and take it out the top?

4) Are there any tips that you guys can give me that will save me time and help me avoid any potential pitfalls that I might be unaware of at present?

Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated.

[wolfman]

Actually don't let the oil consumption bother you. Those compression numbers are quite good. (The far above "normal" wet test numbers indicate the compression rings and valves are sealing just fine) You are making WAY more work for yourself than is needed at this point. The oil pan "gasket" is JUST RTV, and can be replaced WITHOUT pulling the engine. Cam cover gasket for a 96' is $35 and takes about an hour to change. All told your "repair" costs to fix the bulk of the oil use will be UNDER $50. The rich mixture is NORMAL on heavy acceleration for a Saturn as is some "soot" in the tailpipe. 99 times out of 100 a rich condition is due to a faulty ECTS (a search of the board will reveal all you need to know) If your current ECTS is still the factory unit, odds are it needs to be changed...another whopping $15. You are about to rebuild an engine that will give you YEARS and tens of thousands of miles more of reliable service, with nothing more than regular maintenence and the habit of pulling the dipstick at every fill up.

[Razorbak]

Wolfman, thanks for your comments. I appreciate your advice and your tech articles in the "How To..." section. It's good to know that I may not need to do an overhaul.

I still might do it anyway, just for the experience. I actually like doing this kind of work in my spare time. Working in my garage is good therapy for me since drive a desk all day. And I want to gain the experience of overhauling an engine before I undertake my next major project (building a Cobra replica from a Factory Five Racing kit).

So I have other motivations for undertaking this project than simply reducing my oil consumption and saving a bit of money. Plus I've got a couple of weeks off, so I'm looking to learn as much as possible during that time period.

Pretty crazy, huh?

[Razorbak]

PS - I've already replaced the cam cover gasket, so I'm pretty sure the leaks on the side of the engine are coming from below the cam cover.

But I haven't changed the ECTS, so I probably need to do that. Thanks.

[Razorbak]

I called NAPA Auto Parts Today, and they quoted me $139 for an overhaul kit (head set only), plus $88 for the conversion kit (lower engine gaskets, etc).

How do these prices compare to those from a Saturn dealer? Do they seem reasonable?

Any other tips or advice that I should consider?

Also, can anybody answer question #3 above (i.e., engine pull from the top or bottom)?

[wolfman]

Well a few things I can tell you from expirence.

1. I have basically never seen a Saturn block worth reusing that needed boring. Most actually still have factory hone marks still visable on the cylinderwalls.

2. The rings, rod bearings* and even main bearings can be replaced WITHOUT pulling the engine.

* Bit of a challange but it can be done.

3. If you are planning on doing the clutch as well, you will probably want to pull the engine and clutch out the TOP still mated to each other.

4. If you are going to insist on pulling and rebuilding a perectly good engine, and do not have a lift, #3 is pretty much the only way to do it. There are specific instructions in the "How To" section...they're there..I wrote them. LINK: http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...engine+removal

At a minimum REPLACE:

ALL timing chain componants (SATURN ONLY PARTS PLEASE)
Rod and Main bearings
Piston rings
Valve guide seals and have a "valve job" performed
Rear main and timing chain cover to crankshaft seals
Head gasket (obvious)
Cam cover gasket
(Timing chain cover and oil pan DO NOT USE gaskets, seal is RTV only)

[Razorbak]

Originally posted by wolfman
4. If you are going to insist on pulling and rebuilding a perectly good engine, and do not have a lift, #3 is pretty much the only way to do it. There are specific instructions in the "How To" section...they're there..I wrote them. LINK: http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...engine+removal

Wolfman, thanks for the additional advice.

Clarification: I have a 4-post lift, but I don't have an engine hoist.

Can I still remove an engine from a manual tranny Saturn SL from the bottom with the use of a lift, or does the manual tranny preclude me from that option?

[wolfman]

To remove the whole mess from the bottom..

NOTE: The VERY abbreviated version!

Disconnect all electrical connections (Sensors, fuel injector, battery POS and gnd etc..) from the engine and transaxle.

Disconnect the fuel lines from the fuel rail

Disconnect and REMOVE the down pipe from the exhaust manifold and catylitic convertor

Disconnect the steering shaft to steering rack connection

Disconnect all heater AND radiator hoses after draining the coolant.

Disconnect the vcuum line from the brake booster

Tie the radiator to the upper support or (better) remove it completely

Remove the shifter cables from the transaxle and tie them up out of the way

Pull the clutch slave cylinder from the bell housing and tie it up out of the way

Remove the A/C compressor (if equiped) from it's bracket and tie it to the upper radiator support. DO NOT disconnect the refrigerant lines.

Remove the plastic clip retaining the brake line to the engine cradle under the car

Remove the brake calipers from the mounts and the ABS sensors (if equiped) from the struts. Tie them up out of the way. REINSTALL the front tires after removing the calipers.

Remove the 6 nuts holding the upper strut mounts to the space frame under the hood

Remove the 4 engine cradle to space frame bolts

Place the lift under the lift points of the car DO NOT place the lift ANYWHERE under the engine cradle or engine/transaxle, front suspension or steering rack.

SLOWLY raise the lift while making sure that nothing is still connected. The entire front suspension, engine cradle with engine and transaxle still attached will remain on the ground as the car is raised.

[wolfman]

IMPORTANT!!!! Add to the above instructions..

Remove three nuts securing TOP TAM motor mount to the timing chain cover studs just BEFORE you start to raise the car with the lift!

[Razorbak]

Originally posted by wolfman
Place the lift under the lift points of the car DO NOT place the lift ANYWHERE under the engine cradle or engine/transaxle, front suspension or steering rack.

SLOWLY raise the lift while making sure that nothing is still connected. The entire front suspension, engine cradle with engine and transaxle still attached will remain on the ground as the car is raised.

Wolfman, since the entire front suspension stays with the engine, it looks like I won't be able to use this procedure either. A 4-post service/storage lift has two ramps underneath the wheels to support the vehicle...



Larger pictures here:
http://www.stingerlifts.com/images/m...dfeatures1.jpg
http://www.stingerlifts.com/images/mdp_SUV.jpg

Looks like I'm back to square one again. Time to arrange for an engine hoist.

In the meantime, I've decided to go ahead and replace the ECTS (thanks again!), replace the thermostat (preventive maintenance), and perform the piston soak treatment with the GM Piston & Ring cleaner (low cost alternative to an overhaul). I'll also take a stab at removing the oil pan and renewing the seal with fresh RTV.

[Razorbak]

Update: Changed my mind and decided to bite the bullet and buy an engine hoist. Since I'm going to need one anyway for my Cobra project, I figured I might as well get one now for the Saturn engine overhaul. The hoist will arrive in about 5 days, so the overhaul project will resume at that time. In the meantime, I picked up an engine stand and load leveler this afternoon.

Looking forward to undertaking this project, even though it doesn't seem to have captured much interest from anyone except me and wolfman. LOL!

[Luke]

Fm Razorbak
even though it doesn't seem to have captured much interest from anyone except me and wolfman. LOL!

You couldn't be more wrong The writen responses bear no reflection upon the readership level. May I suggest that you not assume otherwise.

==============================
** One VERY HAPPY person, with my manual radiator fan switch, Thanks to Wolf's guidance ** 95 SL2, 387,233 Miles..... 40.35 MPG (10 Tank Full Avg) as of Aug 18, '04. Quaker State 10w-40 Oil, using 1 qt / 1,000 miles

[Razorbak]

That's good to know. Cool! I was just about to give up posting about it, and just go ahead and work in solitude, figuring that no one else was interested. LOL!

Point taken. Thanks for chiming in.

[bbarbulo]

I'm 'bout it too!! *captivated reader* it's just that this forum is pretty mature, so we don't post whore to raise up our post count. hahaha in some other forums I have as much as 16,000+ posts

[Razorbak]

Thank you for chiming in, too.

When my engine hoist arrives, I'll be able to continue the project.

Here's are a few pics of the hoist...

AC Hydraulic, Model WJN10

[Razorbak]

OK, while I'm waiting on my hoist to arrive, I went ahead and performed some interim maintenance. I replaced the ECTS, drained/replaced the coolant, replaced the thermostat, thoroughly cleaned the coolant overflow reservoir, replaced the serpentine belt, and checked the battery. Everything seems to be running very smoothly at present, but the entire underside of the engine is covered with oil. Therefore, I still plan to overhaul the engine before winter arrives, if only to stop the oil leaks and gain the mechanical experience.

I'll post more results as my project progresses.

[Razorbak]

My new hoist finally arrived. Before I pull the engine, I'm going to do a thorough degreasing on the outside, run some leak detector through the crankcase, and see if I can isolate the source(s) of the leak with an ultraviolet light. Hopefully I'll have my results sometime tomorrow (assuming I get a chance to drive it a bit after adding the leak detector).

[Razorbak]

Getting prepared to start the engine removal tomorrow. But before I do, I have some photos to post.

Here are a couple of photos of the ECTS replacment (both the old sensor, & the new replacement)...

ECTS (old)
ECTS (new)

And here are some photos from below the car showing the extent of the oil leak(s)...

Oil leak (1)
Oil leak (2)
Oil leak (3)
Oil leak (4)
Oil leak (5)
Oil leak (6)

And here is the car, with the hood off, and the engine freshly degreased, awaiting removal...

Hood removed, ready for engine removal

In order to facilitate alignment of the hood upon re-installation, I drilled a couple of 1/8" diameter alignment holes in each hood hinge and into the lower surface of the hood...

Hood hinge locator holes (1/8" dia.)

[Qlara]

Razorbak, this is an interesting thread, so don't be discouraged by the low post counts. We may all just reading and looking for any updates from your side.

How do you like that 4-post lift? How much is it (including shipping?) as I was wondering if it is a good buy so we can squeeze more cars into a regular but tall garage. How about the Hoist you've just acquired too?

I guess everyone else maybe thinking the same, it'll be very interesting and good visual reference if you can post more pics for your engine removal? How's the project going on so far?

[Razorbak]

Qlara, thanks for posting. I'll try to keep everyone updated.

I'm really just getting started. Had to pick up some additional tools first thing this morning: long prybar, 30mm socket, and 3-jaw puller.

I've got the wiper reservoir drained, the air intake manifold off, the resonator off, and just about to start on the battery. Then I'll raise the lift and drain the engine oil and coolant.

I really like the lift. Total cost, including accessories cart, drip pans, and castors for moving it, ran about $4K, plus $300 I paid somebody to offload it, deliver it to my home, and help me set it up. The model I got is a little longer and taller than the standard unit, so it was a little more expensive. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. One of the best investments I've made in my home.

The hoist was about $700 (including $175 for shipping to the local Roadway express terminal, where I picked it up in my wife's minivan and saved the $60 residential delivery charge).