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Old 03-15-2004, 03:28 PM   #1
programmer12
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Dizzy Service Engine Soon P0171 & P0174 HELP?

Hello everyone, I appreciate your willingness to help me as I am wanting to get my hands dirty and fix my car myself.

I have an LS 3.0 liter 2000 - I have the SES light coming on and the guy at AUTOZONE read my 2 codes as:
P0171 System Too Lean Bank 1 and
P0174 System Too Lean Bank 2

What would this mean?

I have @45k miles on it and it runs good. Just the light is on, that's all. Gas cap is tight and retightened, so it isn't that.

Wondering about O2 sensors now. Upper or lower one? Or what is causing them to read too lean? Because they are reading too lean doesn't mean they are bad does it? It might not even be them at all. They may be indicative of something else that is making the reading too lean.

HELP, I know you all are experts on this and know what to tell me to try.

Thanks in advance.

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Old 03-15-2004, 04:04 PM   #2
wrg813
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Usually, those codes together would indicate a faulty Mass Airflow Sensor.

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Old 03-15-2004, 09:09 PM   #3
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One very important thing to keep in mind with these codes that you have.Is the reason for the failure in the first place.
Yes these codes would indicate mass airflow failure.Saturn has a bulletin on this.
The cause of failure is most likely. Because of oil slightly coating the sensor inside. Barely visible. If there is oil in the intake duct from air filter to throttle body. then this is deffinently the cause of the failure.
all saturn v6 engines in the L series should only be filled with 4.7L exactly never any more then this. when over filled this failure will eventually happen again.
this failure is very, very common up here. i believe the bulletin explains it all.
bulletin # i don't know of the top of my head.

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Old 03-15-2004, 09:39 PM   #4
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Or...
You could have a plugged fuel filter or low fuel pressure (pump?)
Does it ACT like it's LEAN??
HTH
WOT

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Old 03-15-2004, 09:52 PM   #5
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First thanks for all the help so far.

The car doesn't act like it's lean. It runs good. I have had oil changes done by oil change place and so they probably put the right amount in since I check the dipstick regularly. I have never had to add oil to this 45k car. Only oil changes. It uses no oil. So it is not I regularly have a chance to over fill it.

So hmmmm.... maybe this info so far has helped to diagnose it further?

Should I check to see of there is oil on the maf?

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Old 03-16-2004, 01:18 AM   #6
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2000 Saturn LS2 V6-181 3.0L DOHC VIN R SFI

Top - Vehicle
Technical Service Bulletins
. All Technical Service Bulletins
. . Engine Controls - MIL ON/DTC's P0171/P0174 Set

.



Notes


Engine Controls - MIL ON/DTC's P0171/P0174 Set

BULLETIN NO.: 02-T-48

ISSUE DATE: June, 2002

CATEGORY TYPE: Engine - 16

CATEGORY: Emission Controls

CORPORATION NO.: 02-06-04-036

SUBJECT:
Mass Air Flow Sensor Failure Due to Oil Contamination of Sensor Membrane (Install New Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor and Update ECM Calibration)

MODELS AFFECTED:
2000 - 2002 Saturn L Series vehicles equipped with V6 (L81) engines

CONDITION:
Some customers may comment that the SERVICE ENGINE SOON (SES) telltale is illuminated. The vehicle may have DTC(s) P0171/P0174 and/or any MAF sensor or 02 Sensor DTC(s) stored in the ECM memory.

CAUSE:
After the vehicle is shut off, the ECM stays active for a certain period of time before shutting down. During the period of time when the ECM is active, voltage is applied to the MAF sensor. As long as voltage is being applied, heat and air flow will be generated at the MAF sensor. This heat will cause oil particles in the air to adhere to the sensor membrane causing premature failure of the sensor.

CORRECTION:
To correct this condition refer to the Engine/Emission Controls section of the appropriate model year L-Series L81 Engine Service Manual and follow diagnostic for the applicable DTCs. If it is determined that the MAF sensor is at fault, replace the MAF sensor and refer to the following procedure in this bulletin to determine if an updated calibration is required.

IMPORTANT: Before installing new ECM calibration, make sure the Service Stall System (SSS) version is 10.5 or greater.

PROCEDURE:

1. Connect Scan Tool to the vehicle.

2. Navigate to the 3.0L (VIN R) Powertrain Menu.

3. Select ID INFORMATION.

4. Select ENGINE INFORMATION.

5. Read ECM CALIBRATION ID.


2000 Model Year Vehicles

^ If ECM calibration ID number is 610601, 610602, 620101, 620102, 640104, 640301, 640704, or 640901, reprogram the ECM with the latest 2000 model year calibration. Refer to "Service Programming System (SPS)" in the Saturn Service Stall System (SSS)/TECH 2 User Guide for reprogramming procedures.

^ If ECM calibration ID number is not 610601, 610602, 620101, 620102, 640104, 640301, 640704, or 640901, do not reprogram the ECM. The correct calibration is already installed and reprogramming is not required.


2001 Model Year Vehicles

^ If ECM calibration ID number is 630102, 740104, 740302, 740704, or 740901, reprogram the ECM with the latest 2001 model year calibration. Refer to "Service Programming System (SPS)" in the Saturn Service Stall System (SSS)/TECH 2 User Guide for reprogramming procedures.

^ If ECM calibration ID number is not 630102, 740104, 740302, 740704, or 740901, do not reprogram the ECM. The correct calibration is already installed and reprogramming is not required.


2002 Model Year Vehicles

^ If ECM calibration ID number is 840601, 840704, or 840901, reprogram the ECM with the latest 2002 model year calibration. Refer to "Service Programming System (SPS)" in the Saturn Service Stall System (SSS)/TECH 2 User Guide for reprogramming procedures.

^ If ECM calibration ID number is not 840601, 840704, or 840901, do not reprogram the ECM. The correct calibration is already installed and reprogramming is not required.


CLAIM INFORMATION:

To receive credit for this repair during the warranty coverage period, submit a claim through the Saturn Dealer System for J6532 (Sensor, Mass Airflow - R&R or Replace) and if required, J6355 (EE PROM-Reprogramming), or if another procedure is performed, refer to the appropriate Electronic Labor Time Guide for the correct Labor Operation Code and Time. When another procedure is performed that requires EE Prom Reprogramming, J6355 must be claimed as a "Related Line" to that Repair.





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Old 03-16-2004, 04:50 AM   #7
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My point was that (and LostWages post of the PSB corroborates) the P0171 and P0174 needed to be properly diagnosed via the FSM procedure. YOU COULD IN FACT BE LEAN!!

BOTH your L and R O2 sensors are "seeing" a lean condition, The closed loop processes of the fuel management system attempts to correct it (fuel trim count climbs) but IF IT CANNOT the 171 and 174 are set.

While this is a documented issue, you can't "take it to the bank" or anything. MAF sensors are an expensive device and if (however unlikely) this is NOT the problem. It's big $$ out the window!

Normally when the MAF is contaminated the ECM is "fooled" (by the bad MAF and/or IAT signal) to "think" that less air is entering the engine than actually is present so less fuel than actually necessary is added to try meet an incorrect A:F requirement. This type of thing cannot easily be diagnosed properly without a TECH2 or other scan tool to monitor and compare the MAF and HO2S signals to the fuel trim values.

For these reasons I recommend taking it in to a professional. Some Saturn shops may even have a "test" MAF they can throw on quickly to see if the fault is rectified, which will either confirm the MAF is faulty or prevent needless and expensive MAF replacement

If your car was in for almost ANY Drivability concerns under warranty in 2002 it likely already HAS the ECM calibration update. But then again it only takes a few minutes to confirm that with the right equipment.

HTH
Regards

WopOnTour

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Old 03-16-2004, 09:24 AM   #8
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Wow, thanks a million. You all are so helpful. I can totally understand what is going on now.

My thinking is that I think the damage to the MAF, if there is damage, was caused by the manufacturer incorrectly programming it to work after the car is off, thereby attracting oil to it to contaminate it. It is like sabotage to do this to a customer who has enough support in the company to buy a product from them, only to be sabotaged by their ignorance of the appropriate time to switch off a MAF with the car.

I wanted this car to change my thinking that the only quality American vehicles were Harley-Davidson and trucks.

Hmmm.... your help has prepared me for the stealership's repair diagnosis.

Does anyone know an expected cost for such a repair?

Also where would I get parts from on the internet cheap?

Thanks

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Old 08-26-2004, 09:21 PM   #9
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The SES light has been going off and on for about a month. (2002 VUE). I finally got it to the dealer when the light was on and Fault Codes PO171 and PO174 were read. They replaced the Mass Airflow Sensor. The next day the SES light came on. Back to the dealer and Fault Codes PO171 and PO174 were read. I didn't have time to leave it and have been driving with the SES light on for the past few days. There is no problem with the performance.
Any suggestions?

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Old 08-26-2004, 10:43 PM   #10
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Get them to look up the correct TSB for this problem. The assumption is that you have the V-6. What they have done is the fix for the L-series V-6 when it gets these two codes. They need the following


MIL Service Engine Soon Telltale is Illuminated With DTCs P0171 and/or P0174

#02-T-28 - (Nov 20, 2003)

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Old 08-31-2004, 08:03 PM   #11
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I am at 85k miles....is this TSB a free fix?

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Old 08-31-2004, 11:39 PM   #12
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most likely, NO.

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