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Old 03-15-2004, 03:11 PM   #1
programmer12
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Dizzy Service Engine Soon - P0171 & P0174 HELP?

Hello everyone, I appreciate your willingness to help me as I am wanting to get my hands dirty and fix my car myself.

I have an LS 3.0 liter 2000 - I have the SES light coming on and the guy at AUTOZONE read my 2 codes as:
P0171 System Too Lean Bank 1 and
P0174 System Too Lean Bank 2

What would this mean?

I have @45k miles on it and it runs good. Just the light is on, that's all. Gas cap is tight and retightened, so it isn't that.

Wondering about O2 sensors now. Upper or lower one? Or what is causing them to read too lean? Because they are reading too lean doesn't mean they are bad does it? It might not even be them at all. They may be indicative of something else that is making the reading too lean.

HELP, I know you all are experts on this and know what to tell me to try.

Thanks in advance.

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Old 03-15-2004, 03:19 PM   #2
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First, welcome to SaturnFans!
Second, try posting the same info on our tech section. They might be more familar with engine codes you mentioned over there.
Good luck!

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Old 03-15-2004, 08:10 PM   #3
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2000 Saturn LS2 V6-181 3.0L DOHC VIN R SFI

Top - Vehicle
Powertrain Management
. Computers and Control Systems
. . Testing and Inspection
. . . Testing and Inspection Procedures
. . . . Trouble Code Diagnostic Charts
. . . . . P0171

.



Notes


P0171

A closed loop air/fuel metering system is used to provide the best combination of driveability, fuel economy, and emission control. In this system, short term fuel trim is accomplished by the ECM rapidly responding to the oxygen sensor readings. These changes finely tune engine fueling. Additionally, long term fuel trim is determined by trends in short term fuel trim, and serves as a coarse tuning mechanism for engine fueling. Fuel trim values near 0% are ideal. As the value increases, this indicates that the engine is in a lean state. Smaller values indicate a rich state of operation. The ECM in the vehicle stores fuel trim values for three different speed/load ranges: one at idle and another at medium speed/load, another at high speed/load. This code sets when the fuel trim is excessively high in any of the three speed/load ranges.

DTC PARAMETERS
This DTC will set if closed loop is active, and the following fuel trim limits lave been exceded:


Idle: 7.7%
Medium speed/load: 21%
High speed/load: 21%
DTC P0171 is a (type B) DTC

DIAGNOSTIC AIDS
The following are malfunctions that could cause a lean condition:


Vacuum leak
Fuel pressure low
Poor fuel quality/water in fuel
Exhaust leakage around manifold or front O2S sensor
Fuel injectors clogged.
IMPORTANT: If the front oxygen reading is greater than 1.2, and the rear HO2S is below 300 mV all the time, the O2 sensors are probably not at fault.


Copyright 2004 ALLDATA LLC
Terms of Use






2000 Saturn LS2 V6-181 3.0L DOHC VIN R SFI

Top - Vehicle
Powertrain Management
. Computers and Control Systems
. . Testing and Inspection
. . . Testing and Inspection Procedures
. . . . Trouble Code Diagnostic Charts
. . . . . P0174

.



Notes


P0174

A closed loop air/fuel metering system is used to provide the best combination of driveability, fuel economy, and emission control. In this system, short term fuel trim is accomplished by the ECM rapidly responding to the oxygen sensor readings. These changes finely tune engine fueling. Additionally, long term fuel trim is determined by trends in short term fuel trim, and serves as a coarse tuning mechanism for engine fueling. Fuel trim values near 0% are ideal. As the value increases, this indicates that the engine is in a lean state. Smaller values indicate a rich state of operation. The ECM in the vehicle stores fuel trim values for three different speed/load ranges: one at idle and another at medium speed/load, another at high speed/load. This code sets when the fuel trim is excessively high in any of the three speed/load ranges.

DTC PARAMETERS
This DTC will set if closed loop is active, and the following fuel trim limits lave been exceded:


Idle: 7.7%
Medium speed/load: 21%
High speed/load: 21%
DTC P0174 is a (type B) DTC

DIAGNOSTIC AIDS
The following are malfunctions that could cause a lean condition:


Vacuum leak
Fuel pressure low
Poor fuel quality/water in fuel
Exhaust leakage around manifold or front 02S sensor
Fuel injectors clogged
IMPORTANT: If the front oxygen reading is greater than 1.2, and the rear HO2S is below 300 mV all the time, the O2 sensors are probably not at fault.



Copyright 2004 ALLDATA LLC
Terms of Use

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Old 03-16-2004, 10:06 AM   #4
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We usually see a contaminated MAF sensor with these codes. The only way to fix a contaminated sensor is to replace it. If you have Ma,/ Ca. emissions it may be covered 3yrs/ 50k miles

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Old 03-16-2004, 11:30 AM   #5
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Thanks, I guess the MAF sensor has been contaminated. My first post says a 2000 LS2 so I guess I have to buy one. Any ideas where adn how much to pay?

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Old 03-16-2004, 11:36 AM   #6
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I'd say before you try anything, throw in a bottle of Techron or some other injector cleaner. I had my car throw a code due to some bad gas. I put in a bottle of Techron and filled the tank with gasohol. No problems since. If the code doesn't go away, ask the guy at autozone to reset the code. If there is still a problem, the code will trigger again, and then you can take it in to Saturn for more expensive solutions.

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Old 03-16-2004, 11:47 AM   #7
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Thanks, I'll try the injector cleaner. I had the guy from autozone clear the code and boom five minutes later it went on again.

I'll get the injector cleaner.

Can the MAF be cleaned? It seems like a mechanical sensor. Wire heats up....

They must be able to thoroughly clean it at the factory when manufacturing the part, so couldn't I clean it also. With like a Qtip and alcohol.?

IS it worth a try. HOw do I keep it from getting dirty again? A dealer should reprogram my car to not heat up the maf after the engine is shut off so it won't attract oil to contaminate it.

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Old 08-31-2004, 07:59 PM   #8
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This is an older thread, but my car is now throwing the same codes. My SES has been going on/off with these codes.

Did the injector cleaner work? Or did you have to replace the sensor? Is MAF sensor replacement difficult?

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Old 08-31-2004, 09:40 PM   #9
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My car has never thrown that code since, So I'm guessing I just had some bad gas.

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Old 09-01-2004, 01:40 AM   #10
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Ugh...i did go to the shell station again..

But I guess cleaning of injectors and sensor will not cost anything, compared to replacing the sensor. We'll see how that goes....if the SES pops up I guess i'll look into it further.


Sucks being out of warranty!

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Old 09-01-2004, 07:47 AM   #11
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I went to Autozone to get my codes read, but he said they weren't allowed to clear them, even if I bought the parts from then to fix it. What's the point of buying parts from them if you have to pay a shop to clear the code anyway?

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Old 09-07-2004, 01:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by spencerb
...What's the point of buying parts from them if you have to pay a shop to clear the code anyway?
Well, I suppose you could look at this two ways: 1) They don't repair cars and that would fall under the "repair" classification, and; 2) The code will clear itself after three drive cycles...if you fixed the problem.

But, I kind of agree with you. There's no harm in clearing a code. If you're subject to emissions testing the system readiness test will indicate any historical or pending codes so that wouldn't be an issue.

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Old 09-09-2004, 12:56 PM   #13
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Just do what I did....go on eBay and find a nice, used OBD-II scan tool for under $100. Then you can check it as much as you need and reset the codes if necessary. Just be careful, all your friends and neighbors will want you to check their cars too.

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Old 09-10-2004, 05:44 PM   #14
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A friend is letting me borrow an Actron CP9135 OBDII AutoScanner.

Its pretty good, lets you read/erase codes, but it does not show any engine statistics.

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Old 09-10-2004, 07:53 PM   #15
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If you need a mass airflo sensor the part # is 90528435 and it is about 110.00. Our shop also recalibrates the computer when this is done. Hope this helps.

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Old 11-08-2004, 03:21 PM   #16
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Mad Re: Service Engine Soon - P0171 & P0174 HELP?

Saturn called...told me that my Air Mass Flow Sensor is bad and needs to be replaced. The throttle system is off and needs to be calibrated. Total cost on repairs...$747, where can I get this done cheaper? Can I buy this dam sensor OEM and have my mechanic throw it on and recalibrate the computer himself? Please help me....I'm desperate. I've already been tag with over $500 in replacing the F*&(ING oil pan, gasket and oil change because the God Dam oil plug got stripped.

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Old 11-08-2004, 05:12 PM   #17
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Default Re: Service Engine Soon - P0171 & P0174 HELP?

$747 is a complete ripoff. The part cost $105 or so. It can't take more than a hour to replace and recalibrate. That means they are trying to charge you over $600/hr labor.

Here is the TSB covering the problem. Print it out and show it to the dealer. Tell them they should fix it for free since it is a known problem. Also, call the area saturn rep and tell him the same thing.




2000 Saturn LS2 V6-181 3.0L DOHC VIN R SFI

Top - Vehicle
Powertrain Management
. Computers and Control Systems
. . Air Flow Meter/Sensor
. . . Technical Service Bulletins
. . . . All Technical Service Bulletins
. . . . . Engine Controls - MIL ON/DTC's P0171/P0174 Set

.



Notes


Engine Controls - MIL ON/DTC's P0171/P0174 Set

BULLETIN NO.: 02-T-48

ISSUE DATE: June, 2002

CATEGORY TYPE: Engine - 16

CATEGORY: Emission Controls

CORPORATION NO.: 02-06-04-036

SUBJECT:
Mass Air Flow Sensor Failure Due to Oil Contamination of Sensor Membrane (Install New Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor and Update ECM Calibration)

MODELS AFFECTED:
2000 - 2002 Saturn L Series vehicles equipped with V6 (L81) engines

CONDITION:
Some customers may comment that the SERVICE ENGINE SOON (SES) telltale is illuminated. The vehicle may have DTC(s) P0171/P0174 and/or any MAF sensor or 02 Sensor DTC(s) stored in the ECM memory.

CAUSE:
After the vehicle is shut off, the ECM stays active for a certain period of time before shutting down. During the period of time when the ECM is active, voltage is applied to the MAF sensor. As long as voltage is being applied, heat and air flow will be generated at the MAF sensor. This heat will cause oil particles in the air to adhere to the sensor membrane causing premature failure of the sensor.

CORRECTION:
To correct this condition refer to the Engine/Emission Controls section of the appropriate model year L-Series L81 Engine Service Manual and follow diagnostic for the applicable DTCs. If it is determined that the MAF sensor is at fault, replace the MAF sensor and refer to the following procedure in this bulletin to determine if an updated calibration is required.

IMPORTANT: Before installing new ECM calibration, make sure the Service Stall System (SSS) version is 10.5 or greater.

PROCEDURE:

1. Connect Scan Tool to the vehicle.

2. Navigate to the 3.0L (VIN R) Powertrain Menu.

3. Select ID INFORMATION.

4. Select ENGINE INFORMATION.

5. Read ECM CALIBRATION ID.


2000 Model Year Vehicles

^ If ECM calibration ID number is 610601, 610602, 620101, 620102, 640104, 640301, 640704, or 640901, reprogram the ECM with the latest 2000 model year calibration. Refer to "Service Programming System (SPS)" in the Saturn Service Stall System (SSS)/TECH 2 User Guide for reprogramming procedures.

^ If ECM calibration ID number is not 610601, 610602, 620101, 620102, 640104, 640301, 640704, or 640901, do not reprogram the ECM. The correct calibration is already installed and reprogramming is not required.


2001 Model Year Vehicles

^ If ECM calibration ID number is 630102, 740104, 740302, 740704, or 740901, reprogram the ECM with the latest 2001 model year calibration. Refer to "Service Programming System (SPS)" in the Saturn Service Stall System (SSS)/TECH 2 User Guide for reprogramming procedures.

^ If ECM calibration ID number is not 630102, 740104, 740302, 740704, or 740901, do not reprogram the ECM. The correct calibration is already installed and reprogramming is not required.


2002 Model Year Vehicles

^ If ECM calibration ID number is 840601, 840704, or 840901, reprogram the ECM with the latest 2002 model year calibration. Refer to "Service Programming System (SPS)" in the Saturn Service Stall System (SSS)/TECH 2 User Guide for reprogramming procedures.

^ If ECM calibration ID number is not 840601, 840704, or 840901, do not reprogram the ECM. The correct calibration is already installed and reprogramming is not required.


CLAIM INFORMATION:

To receive credit for this repair during the warranty coverage period, submit a claim through the Saturn Dealer System for J6532 (Sensor, Mass Airflow - R&R or Replace) and if required, J6355 (EE PROM-Reprogramming), or if another procedure is performed, refer to the appropriate Electronic Labor Time Guide for the correct Labor Operation Code and Time. When another procedure is performed that requires EE Prom Reprogramming, J6355 must be claimed as a "Related Line" to that Repair.

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Old 11-09-2004, 10:51 AM   #18
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Default Re: Service Engine Soon - P0171 & P0174 HELP?

well...Back from Saturn and got tagged for $537 to replace the Oil Pan, Gasket and fluid change. Labor is $84 per hour. Got the error codes from the mechanic which reads off: P1511,P0171 & P0174. Explained to me that the Mass Air Flow sensor is bad and needs to be replaced. Also, my Throttle Body is bad and is not giving the engine the power it needs...kinda lost me there. Anyways, I was quoted for:

Throttle Body: $360 (part) + ($126 labor)
Mass Air Flow: $132 (part) + ($42 Labor)
Calibration $84

Now correct me if I'm wrong, do I really have to go through Saturn to get all this done. Can I just buy the parts OEM from SaturnParts.com which is less expensive and find myself an ASE Certified mechanic to replace these parts for me? Can anyone help me find a reliable mechanic in the NYC area? Please HELP!

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Old 11-09-2004, 12:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Service Engine Soon - P0171 & P0174 HELP?

P1511 is a throttle body code. Could be weak return spring. Bad sensor. Or butterfly is binding.

The book standard labor to replace the throttle body is .9 hours. You are being overcharged by .5 hours for that. $360 for the part is about right.

Any garage with the right equipment to "recalibrate" the ECM can do it.

Actually if you are mildly mechanically inclined, you could probably replace the parts, then drive it to the dealer for recalibration. It may not drive perfectly, but it should get there.

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Old 11-09-2004, 01:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: Service Engine Soon - P0171 & P0174 HELP?

SaturnParts.com has the Throttle Body for $293.05 & Gasket for $1.50 also the Mass Air Flow sensor for $91.77. Would it make sense for me to buy it from there? Replace the parts and then drive it to Saturn?

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