dynamic stability control?

[abkaiser]

Another post read:
>I look forward to the day when Saturns have dynamic stability
>control (now available on Buick and Olds as well as BMW Cadilac and
>Mercedes). DSC prevents you from losing control or spinning out on
>turns if you are going too fast or hit some ice or something.

...I haven't heard of this before. How long has this been around? Is there a place I can get more information on it?

[eRic 02sc2]

i'd look forward to rear discs returning. that other stuff is $$$ and i doubt that you'd see it on a saturn.

i dont know if saturn will do it either due to $$$$.
i have stabil-trak 2.0 on my s.t.s. and its an expensive, complex system.
it is kinda fun though! you can do really stupid stuff (on deserted roads of course) to test the systems cabailtys and you'll come away amazed. i once aimed straight a a feild of grass (o.k. it was really a telephone pole in a feild but dont try this at home) nailed it up to like 80 and cut the wheel hard over port, the way that car defyied the laws of physics is unreal.
you can push a car around a wet on-ramp all the way to the floor and working in conjuction with the traction control the car will not lose it!

[100KSW2]

There have been articles in several car magazines on dynamic stability control (not all makes have the same name for it).

For articles on DSC in back issues (in your local library?) see:
Automobile Magazine, Aug 1999, pp 72-78 "Twitch Craft"
Popular Mechanics, Dec 1995(!), "May the Cornering Force Be With You"

You could also search on the www.

I am HOPEFULL that Saturn WILL offer it eventually, maybe sooner than we think. In 1993 Saturn was the first non luxury car to offer traction control. Most of these features start out on the Cadilacs, Mercedes Benzes, etc. until the engineers figure out how to mass produce them. This was true for things from air conditioning to airbags. DSC was new a couple of years ago and was offered on Cadilac, MB, Corvette, Porsche and is now (2000 or 2001 models) offered on mid level cars like Buick Lesabre, Olds Intrigue and Toyota Avalon. In Europe it is available on the Ford Focus, but not yet on the US model Focus (in Europe a compact car is a family sized vehicle, the European spec Focus also offers side airbags and 4 wheel disc brakes).

I think you will see side airbags before DSC, though, in terms of what technology Saturns will have next.

[100KSW2]

I just found a new news item on Dynamic Stability Control:
(from http://biz.yahoo.com/apf/000523/trucks_rol.html )

Automakers Take Aim at Rollovers
By JUSTIN HYDE
AP Auto Writer
DETROIT (AP) -- As the American desire for pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles has grown, so have injuries and deaths from accidents in which the vehicles roll over. But technology developed in Europe might offer automakers a way to improve stability quickly and cheaply.
Electronic stability control systems, which use a set of sensors to keep a vehicle from spinning out, are gaining in popularity in Europe and are increasingly being included on passenger cars. But pickups and SUVs might benefit more from these systems, since those vehicles are more prone than cars to rolling over and are more likely to cause a fatal accident when they do.
The electronic stability systems ``look very promising,'' said Brian O'Neill, head of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. ``They appear to work very well on test tracks, and they do seem to, under those controlled conditions, limit the likelihood that a vehicle will get going sideways in a loss of control, which is the typical precursor to a rollover.''
So far, only two luxury SUVs have such systems -- the Mercedes M-Class and BMW X5. But other automakers, including General Motors, Ford and Toyota, are installing them in some of their vehicles.
Although different companies manufacture the systems, each takes antilock brakes and adds three sensors to it -- one each for steering wheel angle, vehicle spin or ``yaw'' and turning force. Engineers program each system with data about what direction the vehicle should go at a certain speed when the steering wheel is turned.
When the system detects the vehicle moving in a direction that doesn't match the stored data, it briefly applies a brake to one wheel. The result is a car that doesn't ``fishtail'' in severe turns or on surfaces with poor traction.
Such systems first gained notoriety in Europe in 1998, when Daimler-Benz AG added it to the Mercedes A-Class subcompact. The micro hatchback -- smaller than a Chevy Metro -- rolled over when journalists made a sharp turn during a driving test. Facing a public relations nightmare, Daimler-Benz redesigned the car's suspension and added a stability system.
The publicity from the A-Class debacle sparked customer interest in stability systems and goaded other European manufacturers to offer the feature, including GM's Opel unit, Ford and Volkswagen. Audi added the system to its TT coupe earlier this year after a few high-speed crashes in Germany.
As a result, one of three companies that builds electronic stability systems, Continental Teves, estimates that 30 percent of all European vehicles will have one by 2004. Automakers charge about $600 for an optional system on a luxury car, and the price is expected to fall in the next few years.
But industry experts say European cars -- which are generally smaller and more agile than passenger cars designed for the United States -- actually see little benefit from electronic stability systems outside of emergencies. The technology might find more use in heavier vehicles that can be harder to control in an emergency or more prone to rolling over -- such as pickups, minivans and SUVs.
According to federal crash data for 1998, the latest year statistics were available, 9,771 people died in rollover crashes. SUVs rolled over in 36 percent of the fatal crashes they were involved in -- more than double the rate for passenger cars. More than 60 percent of the SUV occupants killed in 1998 died in crashes where the vehicle rolled over.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and automakers have been battling over the agency's plans for a test that would rate a vehicle's rollover propensity, giving them a rating of one to five stars in the same fashion that the NHTSA now rates crashworthiness.
Industry experts say the NHTSA appears to have settled on a fairly simple mathematical formula for its test, based on a vehicle's weight and tire track width. But automakers contend that such a formula won't take into account driver behavior and safety systems like stability control.
``Technology is moving faster than rulemakers can move,'' said Bob Lange, the engineering director of GM's Safety Center. ``I don't think anything prevents rollover other than good driver behavior. Integrated chassis systems can certainly enhance driver control and provide a driver assist at the limit.''
O'Neill, the insurance institute head, said the NHTSA test due out this year would only measure a vehicle's likelihood of rolling over once a crash begins, while stability systems work mostly by preventing crashes. If stability controls are proven to help prevent rollover, the NHTSA should take them into account, he said.
But there's no consensus on just how well stability control systems will prevent rollover. Most rollover crashes happen because a vehicle leaves the road and trips over an obstruction. In theory, stability control would improve the chances that a driver could keep the truck or SUV on the road.
O'Neill said safety experts thought antilock brakes would reduce crashes, but to their surprise no improvements have been measured so far.
``It's very difficult to project from the test track to the real world because we have the involvement of the driver,'' he said. ``When you get into the real world, drivers sometime subvert the best technology.''
But automakers have enough confidence in the systems to offer them as a safety feature. The Toyota Sequoia full-size SUV due out this fall will have a stability system. A GM spokesman says the company will introduce such systems ``relatively aggressively'' on new truck models.
``The market for safety systems is substantial, the appetite is substantial and manufacturers want to satisfy those appetites,'' GM's Lange said. ``As a practical matter, what we're going to see is manufacturers applying electronic chassis control systems to trucks and SUVs.''
Ford will offer stability control on the 2001 Windstar minivan and an upcoming version of the Focus compact car. Ford spokesman Jon Harmon wouldn't say whether the company would add the system to all its pickups, vans and SUVs, but did note that Ford had announced earlier this year a rollover air bag system that will be phased in over the next three years.
``One could surmise we could also step up technology for preventing roll through lots of different means, one of which would be electronic stability,'' Harmon said.

[VTHokie00SL2]

Dynamic Stability Control is certainly something I'd be willing to pay extra for. If it's already offered on the Buick LeSabre and Olds Intrigue (and Ford Focus in Europe), then I don't think adding it as an option on the L Series is too much of a stretch. (Especially considering that Saturn was the first to offer traction control in the S Series class, as Jim points out...though, is Saturn the same company it was in the early 90's? I hope to see a return to the "Innovative" Saturn and no more of the "let's save a few bucks by eliminating things like disc brakes" Saturn!)

[100KSW2]

VTHOKIE97SL2

> Dynamic Stability Control is certainly something I'd be willing to pay extra for.

It is about the ONLY thing that would make me trade in my '93 SW2 with ABS, 4 wheel disc brakes and TC! Otherwise, I would be trading a car payment for what? Drum brakes on the rear? (OK my '93 does not have dual airbags, but I am the only one in it 90% of the time.)
The minor small refinements to the S series since 1993 do not in my mind make up for the large backward steps like dropping rear disc brakes and various other economy moves. (The SW2 and SL2 cars in '93 also came with 60 series touring tires that were better performers than the current 65 series Affinity tires, but I have upgraded further to Dunlop D60A2s long ago.)

> If it's already offered on the Buick LeSabre and Olds Intrigue (and Ford Focus in
> Europe), then I don't think adding it as an option on the L Series is too much of a
> stretch. (Especially considering that Saturn was the first to offer traction control in > the S Series class, as Jim points out...though, is Saturn the same company it was in
> the early 90's? I hope to see a return to the "Innovative" Saturn and no more of
> the "let's save a few bucks by eliminating things like disc brakes" Saturn!)

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!

That is EXACTLY the way I feel (and the way many Saturn team members feel: when I printed copies of the pictures of the various Saturn show cars from this site and took them into my retailer, the FIRST thing the service techs noticed was the rear disc brakes).

The main reason I bought my '93 SW2 was because of the availability of traction control, which was first offered that year.

UPDATE:
I just got the July 2000 issue of Motor Trend and on page 28, in the item "New Windstar Plays it Safe" it says:

"..the Windstar (Ford 2001 minivan) will offer a formal stability control system,
called AdvanceTrac, by mid-year. Essentially the same as now offered on the Ford Focus
in Europe and the Lincoln LS in North America, AdvanceTrac soon will be offered on US
Focus models as well."

Saturn has lost its leadership position on offering new technology like this. A couple of years ago the Prism/Corolla got side airbags and the S series got ... a new color and some more sound insulation. You want to know why Saturn sales are hurting? It is not the sales marketing, it is the product. The S series is a great small car ... for the early 1990s. The L series is very nice (after some early fit and finish problems that made them look junky parked next to the S cars), but as a BRAND NEW MODEL what does it offer that a new car buyer can not get on an Accord/Camry/626/Taurus? The side air bags should have been there on day one, for example. If you want to compete with proven models (and perenial best sellers!) you can not use a "me-too" approach, you have to offer something MORE. The something more in this case was supposed to be the Saturn "difference", but I think a lot of people are having trouble seeing the L series as a "real" Saturn (not made in Spring Hill, etc.) For the record, I think the L series is a real Saturn (but I was very sorry to hear about the Wilmington layoffs).

Happy Memorial Day everyone. In other threads on this board a lot has been said about thanking all our veterans (like my dad, who died when I was young, but served in the South Pacific in WWII). We should also be thankful to all our parents and grandparents. One of the things that makes the WWII generation different from all of us born since was the total unity of the war effort: at no time since has the entire country worked together - in this case to save the world as we now know it. Remember, at the time they lived through it, and all the hardships and sacrifices, the outcome was far from certain.

A safe holiday to all,
Jim