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Old 12-10-2019, 04:52 PM   #1
chrisjca
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Default CVT Swapped, not turning over

So I've been plugging away at swapping the CVT out of my 2.2L 04 Vue and everything seems to have been going smoothly until today. I just tested it out and it turns on fine a la the dash lights up, everything works, I can hear a click (one click) and the fuel pump engaging, but when I turn the key to start the engine absolutely nothing happens. No noises or anything. Everything worked great until the swap, no issues with starting.

Battery has about 11.5V, I'm gonna juice it up a bit but seeing as how no noise happens when I turn the key to start the engine I don't feel like that's the issue. Didn't see any blown fuses, all the clear ones are good but I dunno how to check the solid colored ones. Starter was wired back in correctly. When I did my wiring I traced everything back to the fuse block to make sure I was connecting the correct wires together. I feel like I did everything I possibly could to make sure I did things right. Everything is hooked back up as it should be, but I'm going to double check to make sure I didn't miss a wire somewhere.

I'm not sure what else to check at this point or how to pinpoint what's going wrong. Help would be much appreciated.

Edit: I actually did not hook a cable up and feel a bit silly now. I can't remember where it goes. It's an extra wire coming from the positive battery terminal, it's got the normal circular metal plug end to it with a flat vertical piece protruding from the side. I have the other one hooked up to the fuse box along with a black wire. I can't believe I didn't take a picture of where these things went, I got everything else documented thoroughly of course, just not this.

Last edited by chrisjca; 12-10-2019 at 05:03 PM..

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Old 12-10-2019, 05:02 PM   #2
waiter21
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2003 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: CVT Swapped, not turning over

You removed the CVT trans, What did you install?? Another CVT?

Is the cable a large one, i.e. does it go to the starter? (Take a photo of it)

There are several grounds on the bottom of the engine near the starter. Make sure they are connected. Look at the photo in post #3 in this link. You may also consider adding those additional ground cables that are described in post #1.,

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=216101

Verify the connectors for the Fuel injectors and the throttle body are correct. These can be swapped and plugged in wrong. Scroll down to post #16 to see how to identify them:

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=215542

..

...
2003 Vue - 2.2L with Manual Trans. (Swapped)
Originally had 2.2L and Auto trans.

Last edited by waiter21; 12-10-2019 at 05:09 PM..

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Old 12-10-2019, 05:32 PM   #3
chrisjca
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Default Re: CVT Swapped, not turning over

I did a CVT -> AF23 swap, my mistake I should have clarified that.

I had a cable for the positive battery terminal unconnected and realized it was supposed to go to the starter. I plugged it in thinking it would work, but I'm getting the same result. The light on my radio+my odometer dim out, but none of the other lights do. Headlights stay the same brightness as well. I dunno if that means anything, but I know normally that's not the case.

I'll read up those links you've provided and see what I can do. Thank you waiter!

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Old 12-10-2019, 08:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: CVT Swapped, not turning over

Waiter I checked all that and it was good, unsurprisingly because I didn't really touch any of them. But on the offchance that I bumped any of them I did and they all seemed fine. I cleaned them off on the chance that it was a bad connection issue, same problem.

On a whim I checked the voltages on the starter. The one terminal that gets a constant stream of 12V is good, however the one that's supposed to get additional current once the key is turned is a flat 0 no matter what is done. It is making noise, so I think the pinion is moving up as it should, it's just not cranking as it should when the key is turned. So that one small purple wire isn't getting the power it needs. I'm pretty sure it's one of the wires from the Transmission Range Switch. What could prevent that from getting the current it needs?

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Old 12-10-2019, 09:19 PM   #5
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Default Re: CVT Swapped, not turning over

Some things to go over; battery, battery cables, and their connections to allow the starter to draw the most current of any electrical device. If the battery was reading 11.5v, this may be a partially or fully discharged battery. How old is this battery? Was it fully charged before starting after the xmission was replaced? Good batteries always measure 12.5v on standby. 11.5v suggests either the battery needs a full charge before use or tested at any auto store selling car batteries with in-store testing. While 11.5v is good enough to power all electrical and electronics, the moment the starter is engaged, two parts draw current - the starter solenoid then motor. The starter solenoid can pull a few amps because its needed to pull out the starter gear to engage the engine flywheel. The moment the starter solenoid pulls out the starter gear, it closes a set of electrical contacts to allow full battery voltage to power the starter motor. The starter motor, under load against turning the engine will draw anywhere from 50-150 amps+. Car batteries are only needed to power the car up and provide starting amperage to the starter. Once the engine starts up, the alternator takes over, providing all the electrical needs a vehicle needs while simultaneously charging the battery. Main power distribution; battery cables.

Battery positive goes to the main fuse box and starter. A separate fusible link wire connects battery to alternator from the starter terminal (two wires on the starter terminal). The smaller wire connected to the starter small terminal is the START wire from the ignition switch, powered up only when the ignition switch is held in START position. If you tried measuring for 12v on this small wire on the starter, be aware of the starter powering up to crank the engine and if everything is correct, engine startup while you're under the engine. It may be safer to test this wire disconnected or run a long test lead with an alligator clip so you can measure for voltage away from the vehicle. Any wire will do no matter how long as you're only measuring for voltage. Ground is anywhere on the engine block or chassis (bare metal, nuts, bolts, etc).

Battery negative goes to two places - battery to nearby chassis stud and chassis to engine block. This provides two main grounds for everything on the engine or chassis wherever electrical or electronics are connected for nearby grounds. Several areas on the chassis have ground wires collected together into a ground splice pack with one large ring terminal to attach to chassis studs.

If you have another car battery, try using it to boost power to the discharged battery. Use good jumper cables. Cheap cables do not carry amperage for starting and warm up when starting. Quality jumper cables (6, 4 or 2 gauge) will carry large amounts of amperage to power starters without needing the dead battery. The cheap cables relies on 'boosting' the dead battery and in certain situations won't help, requiring several minutes to recharge the dead battery in order to allow both batteries to help the starter. Wire gauge; the lower the number the larger the amount of copper wires. 8 gauge jumper cables are not useful in freezing weather except when a battery has some charge left and the booster battery helps it. 6 is ok. 4 and 2 are best. Stay away from "copper clad aluminum" cables. Either use all copper jumper cables or waste time guessing why a boost doesn't work.

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Old 12-10-2019, 09:50 PM   #6
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Default Re: CVT Swapped, not turning over

The battery had been sitting for about a week while I worked on the swap, it was fine before I started this, it's a few months old at most. I've brought it back up to 12+ and the issue persists. I did the start test, there was zero current. I even went further up the wire near the Transmission Range Switch and cut off my heatshrink on that wire to test it at the soldered connection and I got nothing. I tested the yellow wire which - according to my Haynes manual - is from the ignition switch. It's getting power. So I'm lead back to thinking there's something up with that purple starting wire.

I did the whole 'bridge the gap with a screwdriver' thing, connecting the 12v post and the starter post on my starter solonoid. The car starts fine doing that with two exceptions: my wheels are constantly and slowly turning (not sure if that's normal, I don't have the brakes installed currently), and I can't shift from park. I feel like those are just quirks of forcing a car to start like that, but I wanted to see if the thing even starts.

I don't have another battery and can't afford to go out and get another one currently to try this. I do have a car battery charger though (not a jumper box, an actual charger thing), which is what I've used to get mine back up to power. I'll try charging it a bit longer. While that's charging I'll try reworking that purple wire, maybe I didn't solder it properly or something. Thank you for your reply!

Edit: Hold on. Hold. On. Do I need my brakes installed to even attempt to start it? The calipers and rotors are not installed right now, I wanted them out of the way while I work on it. I drive a lot of new cars at work and they won't start without the brakes engaged, I don't know if that applies to old cars like my Vue.

Last edited by chrisjca; 12-10-2019 at 09:57 PM..

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Old 12-10-2019, 11:28 PM   #7
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2003 VUE 2.2L
Default Re: CVT Swapped, not turning over

Sounds like you may be missing the Neutral / Park safety switch .

Do you have any diagrams?

...
2003 Vue - 2.2L with Manual Trans. (Swapped)
Originally had 2.2L and Auto trans.

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Old 12-10-2019, 11:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: CVT Swapped, not turning over

1-The starter powering up and engine running means basic power and cabling for starter is perfect. Screwdriver shorting the two starter terminals is the best way to test battery, battery cables and their connections. I neglected to mention trying this but you knew how to short cut things so let's move on. Battery is fine with this starter and engine running test. Good chargers whether trickle or 5/10/15+ amp units are fine for getting the battery up to full charge.

You don't need another battery and jumper cables by proving the starter runs and engine starts up.

2-As you know, automatics use the Park/Neutral safety switch to prevent starting in gear (drive or reverse). Manual xmissions use a similar safety switch exactly like the P/N switch; pressing down on the clutch pedal closes the safety switch to allow 12v from the ignition switch START terminal to feed 12v to the starter. If autos are shifted to 'D' or 'R', the starting circuit is cut off. If the clutch pedal isn't depressed, the starting circuit is cutoff. Bypassing each switch simply consists of disconnecting the two wires and joining the terminals together. The ignition switch, when turned to START will send 12v directly to the starter.

You can bypass those switches by examining their wiring. If I'm not mistaken, yellow wires are used for part of the START circuit beginning with the ignition switch leading to the fuse box then going to either the P/N or clutch safety switch then wiring color turns purple ending at the starter solenoid terminal. Wiring color changes - wiring sequence may be off but the two starter wire colors are yellow and purple.

3-Brakes are never needed to start any engine. You may be confusing the park brake switch requiring the brake pedal pressed before the automatic shift lever can move from Park position.

4-The xmission is free spinning with wheels off the ground because xmission oil transfers parasitic power to the wheels. If you grab a wheel, it will stop. Grab both wheels like they were on the ground and both wheels stop turning. This presumes the xmission is in neutral or park position.

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Old 12-10-2019, 11:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: CVT Swapped, not turning over

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
1-The starter powering up and engine running means basic power and cabling for starter is perfect. Screwdriver shorting the two starter terminals is the best way to test battery, battery cables and their connections. I neglected to mention trying this but you knew how to short cut things so let's move on. Battery is fine with this starter and engine running test. Good chargers whether trickle or 5/10/15+ amp units are fine for getting the battery up to full charge.

You don't need another battery and jumper cables by proving the starter runs and engine starts up.

2-As you know, automatics use the Park/Neutral safety switch to prevent starting in gear (drive or reverse). Manual xmissions use a similar safety switch exactly like the P/N switch; pressing down on the clutch pedal closes the safety switch to allow 12v from the ignition switch START terminal to feed 12v to the starter. If autos are shifted to 'D' or 'R', the starting circuit is cut off. If the clutch pedal isn't depressed, the starting circuit is cutoff. Bypassing each switch simply consists of disconnecting the two wires and joining the terminals together. The ignition switch, when turned to START will send 12v directly to the starter.

You can bypass those switches by examining their wiring. If I'm not mistaken, yellow wires are used for part of the START circuit beginning with the ignition switch leading to the fuse box then going to either the P/N or clutch safety switch then wiring color turns purple ending at the starter solenoid terminal. Wiring color changes - wiring sequence may be off but the two starter wire colors are yellow and purple.

3-Brakes are never needed to start any engine. You may be confusing the park brake switch requiring the brake pedal pressed before the automatic shift lever can move from Park position.

4-The xmission is free spinning with wheels off the ground because xmission oil transfers parasitic power to the wheels. If you grab a wheel, it will stop. Grab both wheels like they were on the ground and both wheels stop turning. This presumes the xmission is in neutral or park position.
Thank you so much for all this information. I've been redoing all my wiring the past hour or so, tracing everything back to its origin to verify I've done it all correctly.

It's occurred to me reading your post that maybe my transmission is set into a gear other than park via the end the shifter cable connects to, therefore the neutral safety switch is preventing it from starting. I just kinda threw the transmission in and connected the shifter cable without considering this.

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Old 12-11-2019, 01:34 AM   #10
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Default Re: CVT Swapped, not turning over

So, it was in fact due to my transmission being in the wrong gear. Of course I learn that after I completely redo all my wiring, but no harm done I suppose. Thank you fdryer for the info on the neutral safety switch, without it I probably wouldn't have even thought about what position the transmission was in. I had it in what was likely 2nd gear, all the way at the opposite end of where it should have been.

Waiter I didn't see your other reply, my apologies. I was bouncing back and forth between my computer and garage in a frenzy trying to figure out what was going on. It was driving me crazy once I figured out where the problem was, but not knowing what the problem was. I'm happy it turned out to be a simple oversight from a rookie.

Last edited by chrisjca; 12-11-2019 at 01:41 AM..

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