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Old 02-19-2019, 01:07 PM   #1
Silverblu02SL2
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Default Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

This is my first OBD car, I am learning and getting a feel for it.

Last week, before I changed the fuel filter the emissions readiness looked like this (with one not ready evap):







While changing the fuel filter, I unknowingly reset the emissions readiness by pulling the fuel pump fuse and relay. so that it looks like this after the first start (5 not ready)










After driving it on 2 short 4 mile trips, 2 became ready (O2 sensor heater and Secondary air sys):








After a 26 mile roundtrip drive with one stop in the middle, one more became ready (O2 sensor)









How long and how many miles driven should the remaining 3 (catalyst, evap and EGR) take to be ready? Do garages with the right tools have the ability to set the readiness to ready after completion of work? I can't imagine garages test driving till they become ready, which could take many miles and hours of driving.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:45 PM   #2
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Evap may take months. It requires a certain outside temperature range. Fortunately, even in California you can pass SMOG with that monitor outstanding.

-Robert

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Old 02-19-2019, 02:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Or Never depending on conditions. The rest will set ready as soon as you get a good 15 minute cruse at 45+mph at operating temperature followed by closed throttle coast down.

Remember, a watched pot never boils.

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Old 02-19-2019, 03:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Since acquiring this car a few weeks ago, I have driven it less than 130 miles to address a few DTC's, which has been fixed. Only thing remaining are 3 Incomplete readiness monitors.

To speed up the EGR readiness, I am thinking of removing the EGR to inspect and clean if necessary. Before doing that, will that set any fault codes or reset the readiness monitors. I don't want a repeat of the saga of fuel filter r&r.

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Old 02-19-2019, 03:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

As you found out after a heads up warning not to reset if anywhere near NYS emissions inspection, no one can reset individual readiness monitors. No one.

Once a reset is performed from car battery disconnect, ecm/pcm fuse removal or using a reader to reset, ALL monitors are erased. The entire emissions self tests are begun at the next engine start cycle. You're already aware of the GM drive cycle. No one at the dealer level, repair shop or exotic tuner shop can reset or modify individual emissions monitors. NO ONE. I welcome anyone documenting proof contrary to what's known and accepted for gasoline engines under OBDII in America. The emissions self test program that updates readiness monitors are embedded in the engine computer and cannot be modified by anyone. Consider this part of the EFI system as the equivalent of hardened electronics free from meddling by anyone. There are individuals that may claim abilities to crack into engine computers but no one ever hears from them after claiming so. Most likely false bravado. It's easier to boast than to prove expertise.

Once the engine computer is reset, all readiness monitors are erased, the car is driven until all parameters are relearned to change each parameter from incomplete/not ready to complete/ready. 50 miles if following the exact GM drive cycle. Everyday driving can take less or more. I don't worry about it when I manually reset error codes but I do so only when there are several months before state inspection. I allow myself more leeway in case an unanticipated problem pops up while working on one problem.

The closest example I can cite is a recent P0304 cylinder#4 misfire a few months ago during Xmas week. I ordered a coil pack for cylinders 246. Resetting the error code worked once then it cam back, ordered the coil pack and while waiting I performed a compression, fuel and spark test. The ign coil pack eliminated the misfire. A week and a half waiting for the ign coil pack, troubleshooting and new coil pack restored my engine back to running condition around New Year. Since my readiness monitors were erased and car driven a few miles before garaging it for disassembly, the new ign col pack went in with some readiness monitors complete. Driving without any misfires allowed the rest of the readiness monitors to complete in a few days of short trip drives. I passed NYS inspection. My sticker was for February. I wasn't concerned about emissions inspection as much as checking to be sure all monitors completed by checking them day by day whenever I ran an errand or went for lunch. Being retired allows me freedom to come and go as I please. If I was working, I'm sure all monitors would be set in as little as one or two daily drives (to work and back home). The key to having readiness monitors complete as quickly as possible is correcting whatever error code(s) appear. In other words, if a repair doesn't correct the problem, the readiness monitors will not proceed from the last failure. The emissions self tests are performed in a set sequence so the last step that failed to complete halts testing until the correct repair is made and detected by the program. No one can deliberately alter any values in the engine computer. That suggests tampering and one embarrassing example of tampering cost VW billions in international fines ($65 billion?) by deliberately meddling with diesel emissions programs. OBD II is successful with zero illegal tampering to alter emissions in the USA. Its easier to comply with federal/state vehicle emissions than it is to tamper with universally accepted emissions programs to reduce air pollution. Unfortunately, the diesel community is undergoing a difficult stage meeting relatively new diesel emissions standards. VW has proven how difficult it can be in addition to being caught illegally altering diesel emission programming.

Last edited by fdryer; 02-19-2019 at 03:20 PM..

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Old 02-19-2019, 03:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverblu02SL2 View Post
Since acquiring this car a few weeks ago, I have driven it less than 130 miles to address a few DTC's, which has been fixed. Only thing remaining are 3 Incomplete readiness monitors.

To speed up the EGR readiness, I am thinking of removing the EGR to inspect and clean if necessary. Before doing that, will that set any fault codes or reset the readiness monitors. I don't want a repeat of the saga of fuel filter r&r.
If you leave the key OFF and reconnect the valve with a clean connector, no grease, then you will not set a code unless you have a dirty valve seat you manage to get clean enough to shift the close point. If this were my problem I would hold off on monkeying with the EGR until you pass smog.

It is the steady cruise that will get the CAT efficiency to complete and the closed throttle coast that will set the EGR complete.

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Old 02-19-2019, 03:24 PM   #7
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

I failed monitor readiness check a few years ago because I forgot to plug IATS back in after changing the cooling fan, and it threw CEL. After plugging IATS back in, CEL was still on so I disconnected the battery to clear the code/cel. Took it through emissions a day or 2 later and they told me too many monitors were not ready. They gave me a paper with a list like the one below on how to complete a drive cycle. Took me about 2 days and went back and passed with 1 monitor still not ready, forget which one, but I believe I was allowed up to 2.

A complete driving cycle should perform diagnostics on all systems. A complete driving cycle can be done in under fifteen minutes.

To perform an OBDII Driving cycle do the following:

1. Cold Start. In order to be classified as a cold start the engine coolant temperature must be below 50C (122F) and within 6C (11F) of the ambient air temperature at startup. Do not leave the key on prior to the cold start or the heated oxygen sensor diagnostic may not run.

2. Idle. The engine must be run for two and a half minutes with the air conditioner on and rear defroster on. The more electrical load you can apply the better. This will test the O2 heater, Passive Air, Purge "No Flow", Misfire and if closed loop is achieved, Fuel Trim.

3. Accelerate. Turn off the air conditioner and all the other loads and apply half throttle until 88km/hr (55mph) is reached. During this time the Misfire, Fuel Trim, and Purge Flow diagnostics will be performed.

4. Hold Steady Speed. Hold a steady speed of 88km/hr (55mph) for 3 minutes. During this time the O2 response, air Intrusive, EGR, Purge, Misfire, and Fuel Trim diagnostics will be performed.

5. Decelerate. Let off the accelerator pedal. Do not shift, touch the brake or clutch. It is important to let the vehicle coast along gradually slowing down to 32km/hr (20 mph). During this time the EGR, Purge and Fuel Trim diagnostics will be performed.

6. Accelerate. Accelerate at 3/4 throttle until 88-96 km/hr (55-60mph). This will perform the same diagnostics as in step 3.

7. Hold Steady Speed. Hold a steady speed of 88km/hr (55mph) for five minutes. During this time, in addition to the diagnostics performed in step 4, the catalyst monitor diagnostics will be performed. If the catalyst is marginal or the battery has been disconnected, it may take 5 complete driving cycles to determine the state of the catalyst.

8. Decelerate. This will perform the same diagnostics as in step 5. Again, don't press the clutch or brakes or shift gears

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Old 02-19-2019, 03:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

BTW, before resetting, only the evap system didn't complete. This means all other parameters were fine, implying no maintenance or repairs are needed. When a reset was performed with more monitors incomplete, leave things alone and just drive. All monitors will complete on their own since they were complete before you manually reset emission. Think about it. If you begin to chase non existent problems, you may create new ones. Don't chase your tail around and just drive the car while observing Torque.

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Old 02-19-2019, 03:46 PM   #9
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Alright, I will leave the EGR alone and just drive it till all readiness monitors are complete.

What if the battery decides to die and I need to replace it? Can I prevent erasing stored codes and readiness monitors by adding a small 12V battery backup to the PCM? Does the BCM need battery backup also or just the PCM?

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Old 02-19-2019, 03:53 PM   #10
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Im sure ny must let you passs without the evap monitor. Could take months to clear that one.

-Robert

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Old 02-19-2019, 04:07 PM   #11
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGary1 View Post
Im sure ny must let you passs without the evap monitor. Could take months to clear that one.

-Robert
I hope you're right!

Let's say if I forget to tighten the fuel filler cap all the way after a fill-up and start driving, will that immediately fail the evap readiness? If I tighten the fuel cap, would it take months for evap to become ready, or not long after tightening the cap?

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Old 02-19-2019, 04:30 PM   #12
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Funny thing I noticed on new cars about fuel evap...

Cars like the Nissan Leaf.and Teslas boast badges that say ZEV, zero emissions vehicle. So other cars like Subaru Forester started putting a PZEV, Partial Zero Emmissions Vehicle, badge with a little green leaf on their cars. I did some research and found they are claiming PZEV because they achieved zero fuel evaporation from the gas tank... WOW, big deal, and they try to make it look like its in the same league as a Nissan Leaf because of that!? Not even close. I guess 0.5% is still partial by definition, but thats a totally immoral and deceptive marketing practice IMO.

"If you can't blind em with brilliance, baffle em with BS." PZEV is intentionally baffling!

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Old 02-19-2019, 04:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverblu02SL2 View Post
I hope you're right!

Let's say if I forget to tighten the fuel filler cap all the way after a fill-up and start driving, will that immediately fail the evap readiness? If I tighten the fuel cap, would it take months for evap to become ready, or not long after tightening the cap?
Not long after tightening the cap the check engine light should go out but it could take some times before the readiness monitor clears. It requires a very specific set of drives include a somewhat narrow range or good weather (moderate outside temperature). Its not going to clear in the winter unless you're in Arizona and won't clear in the summer unless you're in Maine.

-Robert

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Old 02-19-2019, 04:53 PM   #14
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Since you reset memory with only the evap monitor incomplete, you didn't drive long enough to see when or of it would have completed. With an '02 in relatively good health, emissions wise, my guess is if a reset wasn't performed then the evap would have completed sooner. With a reset, every monitor is learned as the car is driven and each monitor that meets minimum parameters will pass, change from incomplete to complete and move on to the next monitor. Allow the emissions self test to run its course and be patient. Its automatic and can be interrupted at any time without losing learned parameters when the engine is shut down. As long as the car battery is connected, keep alive memory retains what's learned and doesn't lose its place during self testing. This goes on every time the engine is started, car driven, live emissions testing until an error is detected.

A dead battery is the same as disconnecting power to the engine computer resulting in losing these parameters - they're in live memory requiring 12v and miniscule power for memory. No different from radio presets. Lose battery power and memory is erased. I wouldn't be concerned about connecting a small backup battery unless you're paranoid. Even a dead battery that's not really dead will still have power for memory. A full battery disconnect, removing all power to the engine computer will erase memory. Or pulling the pcm fuse or pressing a reset button on a reader or onscreen tab on cellphone/tablet screen.

As to leaving the fuel cap loose and if it generates an error code - the error code goes away almost immediately on the next engine start cycle since the emissions testing is always running. When the engine's started, the evap system checks for fuel vapor pressure and low vacuum from one sensor on the fuel tank, the fuel tank pressure sensor. The engine must be running to generate vacuum before the evap system tests for fuel tank vapor pressure, enable a solenoid or two to seal the fuel tank and perform vapor pressure testing followed by a vacuum test to detect leaks in the evap system. Once the engine runs and the evap system test runs, the error code should go away as the check engine light turns off. Tightening the gas cap from fuel vapor pressure and vacuum leak allows the evap system test to run and correct/update the error, automatically turning off the CEL and erasing the error code.

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Old 02-19-2019, 05:22 PM   #15
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

I may be wrong but I believe that just like computer motherboards, ECM's have capacitors on their PCB that hold enough charge to retain memory during a battery swap. Thats why you can change CMOS battery without losing BIOS settings, and why you hold the power button down with the CMOS battery out to reset the BIOS. Probably same with ECM. Disconnect battery and wait 10-15 mins, or turn key to ON and turn on headlights to drain the capacitors.

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Old 02-19-2019, 06:05 PM   #16
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

This pic shows my instrument panel lamp test immediately after turning key to "on". At the upper LH corner, the "service" lamp (w wrench symbol) goes out immediately, but the "Service engine soon" lamp stays on as long as the key is in the "on" position. It only goes out when I start the engine.

Shouldn't the "Service engine soon" lamp go out after the lamp self test? There are no scanned codes, only 3 Incomplete monitors. Are the 3 Incomplete monitors setting the "Service engine soon" lamp? Is that what it wants me to service or has the ECU detected something else wrong that is about to pop up as a DTC?

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Old 02-19-2019, 06:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

CMOS may or may not be part of ecm/pcm, tcm, bcm, abs, airbag or OnStar. Battery disconnect for a few seconds is all it takes to lose keep alive memory in automotive applications. If I'm not mistaken, service manuals recommend removing power for around 15-30 seconds for memory reset, longer for abs due to the module having capacitors holding a 24v(?) charge to fire airbags even when the engine dies or battery is abruptly disconnected in a crash. I think the airbag system may have the largest capacitors for storing power in case of loss of power so it can still deploy airbags in extreme cases. Memory is lost in radios whenever someone mentions their instrument panel lights and radio resets in momentary blackouts whether driving or starting up. This usually points to a main power problem with battery, battery cables, and their connections to fuse panel and two major grounds (chassis and engine block). When a radio dies or display shuts off, this hints of a major power disconnect. Radio memory is lost and mentioned during troubleshooting.

If I'm not mistaken, temporary memory configured to hold data isn't designed to use capacitors to maintain memory since memory in specific areas of EFI or other modules are designed to lose data when power is removed. Why add complication if capacitors are susceptible to temperature and aging? Losing, erasing memory is part of accepted procedures.

Service manuals for Saturns recommend removing battery power to the airbag module for at least 30 minutes before working on any part of the airbag system. Descriptions explain capacitors needing to bleed off before its safe to work on the airbag system.

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Old 02-19-2019, 07:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverblu02SL2 View Post
This pic shows my instrument panel lamp test immediately after turning key to "on". At the upper LH corner, the "service" lamp (w wrench symbol) goes out immediately, but the "Service engine soon" lamp stays on as long as the key is in the "on" position. It only goes out when I start the engine.

Shouldn't the "Service engine soon" lamp go out after the lamp self test? There are no scanned codes, only 3 Incomplete monitors. Are the 3 Incomplete monitors setting the "Service engine soon" lamp? Is that what it wants me to service or has the ECU detected something else wrong that is about to pop up as a DTC?

That is the correct behavior. The SES will go out when the engine is started. It will always behave that way except if ther is an active code it will not go out.

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Old 02-19-2019, 07:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Do you really have no gas?

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Old 02-19-2019, 08:16 PM   #20
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Emissions readiness DTC- how long does it take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGary1 View Post
Do you really have no gas?
Huh? Was that a question for me?

Ok I think you meant is the tank empty?

Tank is just below half full. The pic shows empty, because I turned the key to "on" then immediately took the pic to capture the service lamp before it quickly went out, before the fuel level needle rises.

...
1/28/2019 2002 SL2 w 62k miles

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