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Old 11-12-2018, 11:38 PM   #1
mattwithcats
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2002 SL2
Default Rear disc brakes...

Looks like its brake rebuild time...

I think I have a leaking rear wheel cylinder...
Brake fluid is disappearing...

For the cost of two drums, shoes, self adjusters, hardware kit, and a wheel cylinder,
I can buy two calipers, two rotors, pads, and parking brake cables.

Do I need two parking brake cables?

...
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:43 PM   #2
mattwithcats
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2002 SL2
Default Re: Rear disc brakes...

You have to use a 1998 Saturn SL2 to find the parking brake cable...


Part # 18P1964


https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...ake+cable,1696
https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/ac...ake+cable,1696

...
2002 Silver SL2, manual, 5th gear swap (.605), 80,000 miles, black badges,
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Old 11-13-2018, 01:26 AM   #3
fetchitfido
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Rear disc brakes...

Calipers, pads, bracket, hydraulic line any model '91-'97
P-brake cable '97 SC1/SC2 for '98-'02 SC1/SC2; '96-'97 4dr for '98-'02 4dr.
Possible '98 as well, but '98 should be the 1st year rear disc was no longer available even with ABS.

The brake end of the p-brake cable is different between caliper & drum (the inside, handle end is the same), one has a little ball and the other a big cylinder (or...maybe it's big ball and small cylinder) and without sanding down they're incompatible. Sanding, I believe, only works in one direction and I don't remember which one.

Good luck with the swap.

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Old 11-14-2018, 01:23 PM   #4
hholbein
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1997 SW2
Default Re: Rear disc brakes...

The stopping distance between rear drums and discs is surprisingly small on these cars, and unless you regularly drive mountain descents and experience brake fade, I doubt the effort to swap in rear calipers is worth the effort.

Others here have found that brake lines or hoses leak just as much or more than cylinders, so it might be good to have a careful look on the lift to see if there's any corrosion going on.

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Old 11-15-2018, 01:41 PM   #5
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Thumbs Down Re: Rear disc brakes...

You are going to spend more time wrenching, trying to do the conversion.


Just for what it's worth
On my 1994 Homecoming Edition- the clearance between the brakes and the muffler, is very minimal- and you have to use a 10MM socket with a bunch of extensions. Whomever the smart guy engineer who thought that everything on Rear Discs on these cars should be all held in with 10MM... WTF were you thinking!!!

If your car doesn't have the Rear Discs... in my opinion- it's really not worth the time to do the conversion. Honestly, it's a real Pain to change the Rear Pads and Rotors on these cars, it's much better with just Rear Drums... a lot less hardware to worry about when you are changing things... then again- the Rear Drums are self adjusting as well.

The amount of time that you are going to search for all of the necessary hardware to do the conversion, is also going to be a bit time consuming.

Just my thoughts... Not a fan of the Rear Discs on these cars, it was a bit of short sight by GM. Not a lot of room to work back there.

I'd like to find some of the engineers that worked on the S-Series and smack them around a few times for some of the piss ass designs for certain things on these cars....

...
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Old 11-15-2018, 03:01 PM   #6
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Default Re: Rear disc brakes...

Congress passed the Metric Conversion Act of 1975 to coordinate and plan the increasing use of the metric system in the United States. The Act, however, did not require a ten- year conversion period. A process of voluntary conversion was initiated, and the U.S. Metric Board was established.

Congress passed the Metric Conversion Act of 1975 "to coordinate and plan the increasing use of the metric system in the United States". Voluntary conversion was initiated, and the United States Metric Board (USMB) was established for planning, coordination, and public education.

American cars manufactured in America itself in fact use metric for their parts. Many American manufacturers use the metric system for their design and production processes. It allows them to more easily source and sell from overseas. Typically, a particular car design, however does not mix measurement system.


The S-series cars was GMs economy car and an experiment for one division to be autonomous as opposed to the other divisions fighting for a seat at the table. Saturn production experimented with a union free assembly line among other innovations to sell a small car in competition to foreign cars in the same price range. GM with massive inbreeding/infighting was already headed towards bankruptcy as it was spending more than it was making. Saturn was caught up in the infighting among the divisions with GM refusing to continue funding it. Try imagining creating a new car division among the big brothers already grown and making demands. Borrowing or finding engineers to create a Saturn may have brought along teething pains (brass coolant sensors were used elsewhere without issues compared to Saturn deciding on plastic ones) all new cars suffer.

Tesla suffers from fit and finish from early days and addressing each one as it pops up. Autonomous driving suffered major shortcomings and Tesla autopilot is stressed even more that it isn't 100% automatic with drivers required to keep their hands on the steering wheel. The average car driver is not a six figure commercial airline pilot flying multi million dollar airplanes with expensive flight management systems for cruising at altitude, taking off and landing. Although takeoffs and landings may be automated, both pilots are always overseeing 'George' in case auto takeoffs or auto landings fail, to ensure someone takes over immediately and not texting or discussing their stock options at any time. Car drivers don't seem to get the message of the vast difference between pilots flying in the sterile cockpit environment and a car with radio, GPS, iPod, cellular distractions including other drivers distracted from their own electronics, ignoring the road, weather and each other.

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Old 11-16-2018, 11:02 AM   #7
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Default Re: Rear disc brakes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
... Saturn production experimented with a union free assembly line...
Maybe they experimented with it, but when they started building cars, they used a COOPERATIVE collaboration with Union Labor working with, and advising, Management. This is probably one reason these cars are so easy to work on.

I would guess that this is standard practice today and one reason cars are as good as they are.

And, you cant take an S-Series to a track with drum brakes. Let us be thankful they even offered discbrakes on these cars.

...
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Old 11-16-2018, 11:27 AM   #8
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Default Re: Rear disc brakes...

O.E. 98
Throttle Body is Rochester
Catalytic Converter and Spark Plugs are AC Spark Plug
Rack and Pinion are Saginaw Steering Gear

^Union Labor^

...
Competition Clutch 10Lb. Flywheel. 14 stalls to date (and loving it)

Last edited by bumpdraft; 11-16-2018 at 11:40 AM..

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Old 11-16-2018, 02:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Rear disc brakes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpdraft View Post

Maybe they experimented with it, but when they started building cars, they used a COOPERATIVE collaboration with Union Labor working with, and advising, Management. This is probably one reason these cars are so easy to work on.

I would guess that this is standard practice today and one reason cars are as good as they are.......
I stand corrected. It's been a long time since cooperation between union and management in Detroit weren't at odds. Thank you for reminding me of a point in Saturn history. This agreement between unions and Saturn, I think, was the reason for Saturn to be described as a different car company. By the time I was able to afford a new car, I began reading negative views of corporate infighting within GM and the lack of any sound reasoning to adopt what is well known around the world as EFI systems. GM first tried their single throttle body injector when foreign cars already used multi point fuel injection. GM eventually caved in and adopted MPFI as emissions controls forced their hands. While unions fought to secure wages and benefits for blue collar workers, management lavished their division chiefs with millions in performance achievements that became unsustainable. Bloated divisions performing the same engineering were duplicated several times as the business model was always a triangle - the more a person controls under him the more power he has and can command the greatest salary and perks. The downfall of GM was ultimately the greed each division possessed to protect itself from others with far too many chiefs. Bankruptcy wiped out corporate greed wile downsizing and eliminating divisions that really couldn't support themselves without begging GM. Bleeding money for years for over paid corporate executives never really performing anything but cooking the books to hide long term losses. Like the super tanker ships taking 20 miles to stop due to the massive momentum of millions of tons of fuel or cargo, GM became the behemoth that couldn't stop as everyone jumped aboard to claim their share of the booty with no one captain deciding how to run it. GM took several decades before bankruptcy and the writing was on the wall.

I'm not sure if assembly line practices changed as much as robotics are now more involved to reduce competitive tasks once performed by man. Where production engineers have learned was to bring robotics in to control fixed operations not requiring a human and aim humans to perform tasks robots cannot do. The mistakes Tesla already admits to rushing in more robotics than needed and finding out humans are needed for tasks robots cannot do. Elon Musk incorrectly presumed robotics would eliminate humans and paid for this misjudgment by further delays with Model 3 production. Most established auto manufacturers learned how to utilize robotics with careful trial and error, leading to longer ramp up time of a new car, truck or suv while still maintaining a skilled workforce. Tesla rushed in a bit too much technology in the assembly line that slowed down production instead of meeting them.

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Old 11-16-2018, 05:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: Rear disc brakes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2NDSOUT View Post
Honestly, it's a real Pain to change the Rear Pads and Rotors on these cars, it's much better with just Rear Drums... a lot less hardware to worry about when you are changing things... then again- the Rear Drums are self adjusting as well.
It's worth noting, when Luke retired his 1995 SL2 with 653k miles on it in 2011, he had his original rear brakes.

...
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