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Old 10-25-2018, 07:02 PM   #1
Anjey
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Default Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

1. What is the typical cost of labor for this job and how much time it takes to replace it in a shop (not at home)

2. Is there anyone here from South Bay area in LA - to recommend a place to go to have that pump replaced locally? (I don't want to go to a dealer because of the insane cost of this job.)

3. Where is the best place to buy the new pump assembly itself?

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Old 10-28-2018, 05:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

Not sure how close this Repairpal estimate might be...There is an option to find a mechanic too. Never used it, but for sure get prices from a few places.
https://repairpal.com/estimator/satu...placement-cost

Here is a video detailing the steps required to replace the pump assembly...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90pSRUVJaKg

Here is a range of fuel pump assembly prices from Rockauto...
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...assembly,10147

...
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Old 11-25-2018, 03:02 AM   #3
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

Thank you for the detailed information. I bought the AC Delco pump MU1642 at Rock Auto and replaced it for $200. Problem is - the gas mileage after this job deteriorated. I must have another leak elsewhere. It was getting 17.2 MPG prior and now it is 16.58 MPG. It's terrible.

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Old 11-25-2018, 04:59 AM   #4
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

EPA states18 mpg city and 28 mpg highway for '07 Aura 3.5L with automatic transmission.

Auras replaced L300's after '05.

My '03 L300 3.0L with automatic is supposed to get 18 mpg city and 26 mpg highway. All local driving has varied from as low as 15 to a high of 19 mpg, averaging closer to 16.. Never got past 25 mpg on long highway drives with cruise control set on 73 mph.

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Old 11-25-2018, 09:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anjey View Post
Thank you for the detailed information. I bought the AC Delco pump MU1642 at Rock Auto and replaced it for $200. Problem is - the gas mileage after this job deteriorated. I must have another leak elsewhere. It was getting 17.2 MPG prior and now it is 16.58 MPG. It's terrible.
Is this mileage calculated or from the Average MPG from the DIC?

Either way, the loss of a 3/4 of an MPG is not that bad. This could be a result of different fuel mixes, every batch of fuel is different and even more so for the winter time mixes.

When I replaced my pump, I should have gotten the ACDelco MU1642, but none of the parts houses had it but one had the Delphi FG1384 in stock. It functions as well as it needs to be however the fuel level sensor reads partially correct, but I've adjusted my mindset to go by my trip meter instead of my gauge.

...
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Old 12-23-2018, 05:25 PM   #6
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Default MPG update

The gas mileage is actually worse than that. I was able to drive around more to get actual readout and the gas mileage now is somewhere between 16 and 16.2 MPG when driven city/FWY - so it is a combined mileage - not just city. Measured many times over. My work distance is 11 miles of which 8 is FWY - so I would expect the mileage to be over 20 MPG on this - not 16.

My measurement is very straight forward. I take total miles driven between fill ups and divide by miles. So for instance I drove 207 miles and filled 12.5 gallons. That's how I got the previous number. But now it is more like 16. For instance I made 218 miles and filled up 13.6 gallons. The Fuel Economy display always shows a higher number - so now it says 17.5 - but that value is untrue. Prior to pump replacement the number shown there was 17.7 and the gas mileage was much higher than now.

I think something is wrong and I had it inspected in one place and an older guy told me he suspected lower injector seals. He told me to come back to have that done - but when I returned couple of months later - I found the place closed and the guy retired. So from there on I worked with different people who screwed me on diagnostics.

Can someone look at the data stream I collected and tell me if there is anything out of ordinary? Please?

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Old 12-23-2018, 05:31 PM   #7
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

here are the numbers
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Old 12-23-2018, 05:39 PM   #8
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Default My Aura 3.5 2007 gas mileage

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
EPA states18 mpg city and 28 mpg highway for '07 Aura 3.5L with automatic transmission.

Auras replaced L300's after '05.

My '03 L300 3.0L with automatic is supposed to get 18 mpg city and 26 mpg highway. All local driving has varied from as low as 15 to a high of 19 mpg, averaging closer to 16.. Never got past 25 mpg on long highway drives with cruise control set on 73 mph.

I think your gas mileage is pretty bad on a highway.
What is interesting about my 2007 Aura is that it gets excellent gas mileage on a freeway at a constant 65 MPH.

I tested that over the years and I never get below 28 MPG.
There were trips though when my gas mileage went above 30 - I got 31 on a trip back home from Colorado.

Now, with this terrible gas mileage - I get 28 MPG on a trip to Palm Springs or Las Vegas. Vegas is a little better actually - I get 28.5 MPG there.

I believe the problem is in the engine. Something is not right and I am trying to find the reason. I have a full tuneup done recently. New plugs, wires, filters and oil. I use Mobil 1 and WIX filters. My mechanic checked and replaced the air flow sensor with a new AC Delco part 2 years ago. He also checked the temperature sensor and O2 sensors. Everything is good. There is no indication that there is anything bad on this car.

There has to be a leak somewhere because otherwise pump replacement wouldn't cause gas mileage deterioration.

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Old 12-23-2018, 05:53 PM   #9
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

What is troubling me - is why there are such differences between the O2 sensors voltage and why the fuel trim differs between banks?

Those O2 sensors differences are really odd.

When I took the pics the car was at idle - so to me it looks like one side is running rich, while the other is lean. Right?

Why is short term fuel trim B2-S2 99.2%
while the short term fuel trim B2-S1 is -1.6%?

Analogically - why is the short term fuel trim B1-S1 -0.8% and the B1-S2 99.2%?

I would like to better understand these numbers, can someone clarify?
What does it mean all of it?

I have no DTC and the car passes inspection in CA.
O2 sensors test OK

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Old 12-24-2018, 12:19 AM   #10
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

1-I neglected to point out when any vehicle is driven at speeds higher than EPA baseline speed (55mph?), fuel economy always drops. My abysmal fuel economy at 73mph is due to speeding well above 55mph. I'm sure if I used 55mph on cruise control, my car will either meet or exceed EPA estimates. Since I'm driving 18 mph faster, engine rpm is higher so fuel use is higher. If I drove at 55mph, engine rpm would run lower and fuel use drops for better fuel economy. When I was driving between home and central New Jersey, I established highway economy based on a set speed of 73mph. Any slower and I was wasting time driving when I wanted to be somewhere within 1.5 hrs. At 55mph, I would spend more time driving and do not want to be the one slowing traffic down. Once out of NYC and on thruway, cc is easier to use without slowing down for traffic between 10am and 2pm when traffic is light.

2-I think anyone unfamiliar with OBD II data can be initially confused. I think you fell into the trap of unfamiliarity. One is the fact that there are two upstream O2 sensors (of the catalytic converters) used only for monitoring how the engine is consuming fuel for engine management/emissions control and the two downstream O2 sensors are used only to monitor catcon efficiency. Bank-1 sensor-1 and bank-2 sensor-1 are the upstream sensors before the catcons. Bank-1 sensor-2 and bank-2 sensor-2 are the downstream sensors after the catcons. I think when you correlate this info, you'll see very similar values between each bank of sensors whether upstream or downstream. You inadvertently compared upstream and downstream sensor data that are different. Compare the upstream bank-1 s1 sensor to its companion bank-2 s1 sensor. The same for bank-1 s2 and bank-2 s2. Compare upstream sensor to upstream sensor from bank one and bank two.

Bank one are three cylinders on one side of the engine, bank two are the other three cylinders on the other side of the engine. When you compared bank-1 s1 to bank-1 s2, you compared upstream with downstream sensors and cannot correlate sensors this way when each sensor has separate functions unrelated to each other.

3-Are you able to measure fuel pressures? There are at least three things accomplished by measuring fuel pressure at ignition ON time (engine not running); 1)pressure before starting to compare against recommended pressures, 2)whether or not pressures bleed off after two or three seconds when the fuel pump stops (safety if the engine isn't started), 3) pressures remaining steady for a few minutes. If any fuel leak exists, pressure will bleed off almost immediately after initial fuel pump operation (described as priming/pressurizing the fuel rail to injectors). Pressures are between 35-75 psi. It's important to measure initial fuel pressures after turning on ignition without starting.

4-Mileage on this Aura?

5-A compression test may be needed above 100k miles. Losing compression as part of normal wear and tear relates to less power produced which may lead to more fuel use, lowering fuel economy.

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Old 12-24-2018, 03:31 PM   #11
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

No. I did not compare upstream to downstream. I just noted that the values are odd. Here are the values again:
B1-S1 = 0.195V
B1-S2 = 0.495V
B2-S1 = 0.795V
B2-S2 = 0.120V

Look at above values again. They seem swapped. Looks like the upstream values are those B1-S1 and B2-S2 while it would be intuitive to have them as you said - B1-S1 and B2-S1 being upstream. Do you agree?

As for the fuel pump.
The mechanic measured the fuel pump pressure prior to pump replacement - the pressure was dropping to zero almost instantly after key off - and the fuel leaked on the joint on top of the pump. It was a bad pump clearly. But that leak wasn't very significant. Leaked after the key was off and during engine run it would almost not leak at all. The pressure there was like 60 PSI in idle. After pump replacement the pressure went up to 65 PSI in idle and key off would not immediately cause the drop of pressure. But they did not measure the time.

My point is that pump replacement caused INCREASE of gas consumption.
There has to be another leak there. My reasoning is that it must be the seals.

Last edited by Anjey; 12-24-2018 at 03:38 PM..

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Old 12-24-2018, 04:36 PM   #12
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

Google how O2 sensors operate, before and after catcons. Be sure to read expected values for upstream and downstream sensors.

For fuel leaks, it was never mentioned until your last reply of an actual leak. Leaking fuel is already hazardous in addition to affecting mileage. Until the source of this fuel leak is addressed, I wouldn't be concerned about fuel economy. Again, what's odometer mileage? I do not know expected fuel pressure. A pressure regulator stabilizes pump pressures so you may want to find out. The best source of info is from service manuals. Either alldata or Mitchell online.

Please don't take this personally but an analogy may help. An actual event occurred many years ago with a commercial airline crashing into the Florida everglades. This aircraft had a three man crew - pilot, co-pilot and flight engineer. They crashed everyone on board died. The cause of the crash? All three were fixated on a single bulb that was burned out. The landing gear indicators used three; front, left and right to indicate each gear was down and locked. One indicator didn't light up. The pilot flying was supposed to be flying while the other two were suppssed to check if the bulb burned out or if the landing gear didn't lock in the down position for landing. The airplane was on auto flight control but the pilot decided he wanted to participate in troubleshooting when he was supposed to be flying and monitoring the instruments. Somehow, one of the two pilots nudged the control stick and inadvertently disengaged auto pilot. The airplane began a slow descent with no one paying attention to the instruments during night landing. Each member of a flight crew has specific duties and crew resource management wasn't required until enough evidence gave way to this term. It's said that many FAA regulations are the result of deaths from airplane crashes. Once the FAA investigated this avoidable crash and determined what occurred, crew resource management became mandatory in flight training to reduce or eliminate distractions and to ensure at least one person is flying and monitoring instruments while another attends to other duties. Better management in crew conversations and maintaining a sterile cockpit atmosphere during takeoffs and landings forces pilots to stay focused on their tasks and not about idle **** chat.

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Old 12-25-2018, 03:49 AM   #13
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

Thank you for this excellent analogy, but my concern is the sensors.
What exactly are you trying to say?

Are you saying I should be looking to replace them? Why?
If I take the displayed info for what its worth then I see:

B1-S1 = 0.195V = Bank 1 upstream = lean
B1-S2 = 0.495V = Bank 1 downstream = normal

The above behavior is quite normal - I wouldn't be concerned but:

B2-S1 = 0.795V = Bank 2 upstream = rich
B2-S2 = 0.120V = Bank 2 downstream = lean (abnormal)

See now?

So either the sensor information is reversed - or the sensors are bad - or there is an internal leaking seal. I think right now the scanner has them marked wrong. But this discussion prompted me to actually go back and scan it again and maybe graph the data to see this again. Something is not right.

Last edited by Anjey; 12-25-2018 at 03:57 AM..

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Old 12-25-2018, 01:08 PM   #14
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

Presuming Auras use wide band O2 sensors, you'll have to read these two links (first one for original O2 sensors, second one for wide band sensors);

https://www.aa1car.com/library/o2sensor.htm

https://www.aa1car.com/library/wraf.htm

If O2 sensors fail, error codes are generated. There are ways to test them. Based on your limited info, it's difficult at this time in determining sensor failure. Another fuel pressure test is needed to determine if pressures bleed off immediately after turning on ignition (engine off). It only takes one leaking injector to skew O2 sensor data. If your Aura uses a vacuum operated fuel pressure regulator, a damaged regulator may allow fuel ingestion to one or both cylinder banks to alter upstream sensor data. Different downstream sensor data may suggest one catcon is becoming inefficient, wearing out.

A partially damaged catcon impedes exhaust flow and alters downstream sensor output. Impeding exhaust flow may alter upstream sensor output as false data. Pinholes in the exhaust system can also alter sensor data. These are some things needed to be considered in addition to sensor failure. Worn piston rings, worn valves, additional additives in fuel, worn spark plugs are other considerations.

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Old 12-25-2018, 06:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

No. They are not wideband sensors. These are regular sensors.
This car has no pressure regulator on fuel rail. The pressure regulator is inside the pump. Whatever bleeds on rail - is due to a leak. I will check that.

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Old 12-26-2018, 12:03 AM   #16
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

Something I have not read in these posts...When you start the engine, is it taking an extended amount of time to start and run? If so, then you do have a fuel pressure bleed. However, is the smell of fuel existent when running or when priming or at another point in time?

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Old 12-26-2018, 01:16 AM   #17
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by explorerbigjon View Post
Something I have not read in these posts...When you start the engine, is it taking an extended amount of time to start and run? If so, then you do have a fuel pressure bleed. However, is the smell of fuel existent when running or when priming or at another point in time?

It did. Not anymore after fuel replacement. Looks like this pump does a much better job pumping fuel.

Thing is - I have this car since forever, I bought it new and it used to give me 23 MPG in the city when new.

I fail to believe the current terrible gas mileage is due to age or wear. Car has 118,000 miles and has perfect FWY mileage. As I said - it makes 28.5 miles on a gallon at 65 MPH cruise.

It makes no sense at all to get 16 MPG combined unless something is significantly wrong.

Oh, and let me be clear about the smell. There was no smell of gas whatsoever. I don't know how was that possible - but even with that broken pump - I never smelled anything. Even when the car was lifted up - and the mechanic showed me the pump leak - still we felt no smell.

I am not stubborn, I am open to ideas, but the problem is that I went to different places, they charged me arm and leg doing "diagnostics" and I spent $500 bucks on that combined and I know less that I knew before.

These shops I went to were just bad guys. It is easy to say - your pump is bad - when you see 12 inches wide stain on it. But to deduct something from the scanner is not easy and these people just keep charging me and say nothing knowledgeable. EVERYONE keeps saying the same thing - that it is normal for this car to make 16 MPG. But that's bull****. It is not normal. I bought this car new. It has the same gas mileage on FWY as when it was brand new. Just the city driving is killing me. And the mileage deteriorated after pump replacement.

Last edited by Anjey; 12-26-2018 at 01:31 AM..

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Old 12-26-2018, 08:52 PM   #18
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

Just filled up again. 14.367 gallons and 225.6 miles. 15.7 MPG. Peachy.
Worse and worse and worse. I re-scanned the PCM again. These sensors there are showing true values. It's just that the sensors data is awkward on bank 2.
I can't explain it. I tried plotting it together and it seems like the bank 2 upstream sensor is showing more rich values from time to time. And there are times that the downstream sensor gets lean for some reason.

I don't understand that.
I really wish someone could explain it to me.

The sensors pass the tests on the scanner and have response times within specified ranges. It is not that the sensors are slow, or sloppy. The rich condition there really occurs. And the lean condition on the downstream sensor also occurs. What does it all mean?

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Old 12-26-2018, 10:30 PM   #19
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

I agree that the mileage dropping off like that is not normal.

Have the spark plugs been replaced within the last 20k miles or so? Old spark plugs can cause bad mileage. However, with that in mind, it might not run quite so good with old/bad plugs.

Your down stream O2 sensors are only monitoring the conditions of the exhaust gasses. Your upstream O2s adjust the air-fuel mixture, which can waste fuel in that manner as well, whether it sets DTCs or not. I would change the Bank 2 Sensor 1 O2 Sensor.

Since there is extended starting from loss of prime, you don't have a fuel leak. I believe the car is wasting it and not burning it like it's supposed to.

A bad catalytic converter can cause this as well.

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Old 12-27-2018, 02:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: Aura 3.5 2007 fuel pump replacement questions

Plugs are brand new. Just replaced. Everything was replaced on the outside. Filters, oil, plugs. Can an injector cause this? Is it possible for an injector to remain open longer than other two? Not open all the time, but just longer?
Maybe those injectors are worn out?

I see the B2-S1 respond fast. I will check the timing again, but it was in range of 30 milliseconds. The limit for failure was over 100 milliseconds.

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