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Old 10-17-2018, 01:31 PM   #1
rfisher
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Default diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

hi sages- service engine soon light went on. plugged in code scanner which read 410 which means secondary air injection. engine runs fine, no change, still pumps 25 mpg at 177k. what does this mean and will it be clip city to fix. sounds like an emissions device or a needless dealer profit enhancer. thanks ton bob f

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Old 10-17-2018, 03:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

Does your car have an air pump bolted to the bottom front of your engine?

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Old 10-17-2018, 08:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

hi dsaturn- do not know . will have to take a look get back to you. regards bob f

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Old 10-17-2018, 08:59 PM   #4
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

hi dsaturn- just checked the bottom front of the engine and there is a small electric air pump bolted to the engine . air hoses go in and out of it and there is a wire supplying electricity to it. apparently it pumps fresh air/oxygen into the hot exhaust stream to reduce the hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide emissions in the exhaust before the exhaust goes to the catalytic converter. there is also a relay for motor current and a solenoid probably to control a gateway for the gases and pollutants. a temp sensor is somewhere too to switch the motor on and off. am I right so far? surmise when one of those components craps out the air injection doesn't work and throws a code, thus the 410 on the screen. but that number is not listed in my Haynes list of codes. mechanic told me the meaning of that number. what do you advise? shysters likely will try to make a home run on this one. hope there is a simple remedy. thanks tons bob f

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Old 10-17-2018, 11:25 PM   #5
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

My car threw that code a couple times when I first put it together. I just cleared and drove it. It has not returned in the last year. My car had sat for a year with a bad engine. There are troubleshooting trees in my fsm. I am not home, won’t be back home until Tuesday.

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Old 10-18-2018, 07:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

hi 2LW- that's one thing im concerned about. have noticed over the years that these codes can be very misleading and sometimes are just plain wrong. shyster mechanic once told me when I asked him to clear the code to check if it stayed off or came back on, that it was a big job and he couldn't do it without a plethora of tests of course for a big $$$fee. I think that is a canard. do you know how to clear a code? does the 410 code mean a fault in the air injection system? thanks tons bob f

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Old 10-18-2018, 07:39 AM   #7
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

Ebay sell cheap code "readers" that will give you the codes then you just Google the code. It will also let you reset the code.
As for the air pump I do not know a lot about them except for they do have a relay and probably a fuse also. I have a 2002 L200 that originally did not have the pump but when the previous owner swapped engines it came with it, it even was plugged in to the electrical system. It also had all the pipes and hoses but on my exhaust there was no connection so the hose was just sitting there not connected to anything. The air pump would run for 30 seconds or so when I started the engine while it was cold.
I removed the pump and lines and every once in a while the p0410 comes up but I just reset the code then it is good for about a six months. Car runs fine without it.
This thread has some info on the system. http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=126450

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Old 10-18-2018, 07:43 AM   #8
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

The secondary air injection (AIR) system is used to accelerate the heating process of the catalytic converters by introducing outside air into the exhaust manifold. The air pump operates on cold engine starts when the catalytic converters are least efficient. The AIR system consists of the air pump, combination valve, air pipe/hoses, check valve, air pump solenoid, air pump relay and powertrain control module (PCM). The PCM controls the ground for the air pump relay coil, which turns the air pump ON and OFF. The PCM also controls the ground for the air pump solenoid, which allows manifold vacuum to move the combination valve. The air pump solenoid and air pump relay are controlled independently to prevent exhaust gas from entering the air pump. During air pump operation, the oxygen sensor 1 (O2S-1) should read lean indicating the air pump system is working. DTC P0410 sets when the PCM commands the AIR system ON and the O2S-1 signal does not indicate a lean condition for a certain length of time.

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Old 10-18-2018, 04:02 PM   #9
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

I have a Snapon scanner that reads all up to about 2003 cars and light trucks. I can get data and codes with this tool. I used this when I had my own retail repair shop. I have worked for a large electricity utility since 2004.
I bought a code reader that also shows data and lets you clear codes from Napa for $85.00. This works on newer cars but only reads OBDII data. This will read my CAN 2006 Lincoln Navigator. I would have had to buy a new Snapon scanner to read my Lincoln. The $85.00 reader is very handy for codes.

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Old 10-18-2018, 09:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

so 2lw and dsaturn- how do you reset the code and turn off the ses light? thanks bob f

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Old 10-18-2018, 10:30 PM   #11
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
....have noticed over the years that these codes can be very misleading and sometimes are just plain wrong. shyster mechanic once told me when I asked him to clear the code to check if it stayed off or came back on, that it was a big job and he couldn't do it without a plethora of tests of course for a big $$$fee. ....... do you know how to clear a code? does the 410 code mean a fault in the air injection system?
If you haven't kept up with gradual changes from carburetor/distributor engines to electronic fuel injection and emissions controls from non OBD to OBD I and now OBD II systems, you may not realize drastic changes in diagnostic, troubleshooting and maintaining skills needed to understand EFI systems complicated with emissions controls. Personally, I followed the transitions from carburetors to EFI to OBD II diagnostics. Basic familiarity with EFI systems with sensors helps to understand why error codes cannot be reset. As a diyer not willing to visit a dealer or repair shop unless absolutely necessary forces me to have more than casual understanding of basic electronics, computers, sensors used in EFI systems, understanding how OBD II operates and what to do to diagnose, troubleshoot and repair most OBD II error codes. Resetting does nothing if an actual error exists from a fault. All resetting does is confirm the error when it comes back, due to failure to correct the problem.

In general, an OBD II error simply means a fault occurred in the EFI/emissions system. Decoding the error is only a first step to identify where the error occurred. In your error code, P0410 relates to the secondary air injection system, pumping air into the exhaust system at every cold engine startup to help the catalytic converter heat up quicker to help it convert exhaust gases to harmless byproducts. The secondary air injection is timed to run for no more than three minutes at engine startup. Less time with a warm engine. The air pump starts up first right after engine startup to create air pressure followed by engine vacuum controlled by a vacuum valve to allow pressurized air into the exhaust manifold. Air pressure from the blower must be available otherwise exhaust gas pressures will flow from the small exhaust tube thru the vacuum valve and into the blower, overheating and melting plastic parts. The secondary air injection system is a timed sequence of turning on things so positive air pressure is fed to the exhaust and not reversed with exhaust gases fed to the blower. When timed out, the vacuum valve is closed followed by the blower motor. Mileage or engine running is rarely affected when P0410 occurs. This is strictly an emissions error for states requiring emissions inspections.

Things to test; blower motor, electric solenoid valve controlling vacuum, vacuum operated valve to control blower air to the exhaust tube feeding fresh air into the exhaust manifold and the exhaust tube for carbon blockage preventing fresh air feed into the exhaust manifold. Mechanical, electrical,
vacuum and hoses are tested to find the fault. The descriptions and procedures are usually not discussed by dealers or repair shops. Would you understand what was described or expect most car owners to understand what's involved in experienced dealer/repair shops as they perform troubleshooting? There is no such thing as shot gunning a problem anymore and those capable of shot gunning a problem are most likely experts in their field. Usually the experts are also charging higher than normal labor rates as expertise comes with a higher bill. At least I think that's how it should work. I'm not sure as I rarely if ever rely on dealer or repair shops. Self education is a long process to stay abreast of EFI and emissions systems. A background in electronics helps along with decent mechanical skills.

To continue, once an error code is decoded and the correct repair is made, the next turn of the ignition switch and/or startup will extinguish the error code. Programming does that; error codes not corrected are flagged in memory and cannot be erased by battery disconnection. A correct repair is automatically detected by the On Board Diagnostic II system to allow it to reset the engine light, store the error in another part of memory (for dealer use). Some errors may take three engine cycles (startup and drive cycles) before the engine light is turned off to ensure a correct repair was made.

The info given is not something I made up. All info come from service manuals. Mechanics not trained or self taught to stay abreast of EFI systems, emissions controls, and electronics will never diagnose problems and may be continuing the 'replacement artist' trade. My first service manual was back in '77. My Saturn L300 manuals (four very thick paper ones) weigh around 20 lbs and worth it for educating me. My '77 manual introduced me to EFI systems as I transitioned from carburetors. My Saturn manuals gave me info on OBD II systems, descriptions of separate modules (ecm/pcm, bcm, tcm, OnStar/vcim, serial and can bus communications. None would be found except in piece meal fashion if I didn't have manuals for reference before attempting to troubleshoot everyday car problems with error codes.

Last edited by fdryer; 10-18-2018 at 10:41 PM..

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Old 10-19-2018, 10:56 AM   #12
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

Quote:
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so 2lw and dsaturn- how do you reset the code and turn off the ses light? thanks bob f
As fdryer said resetting will not solve the problem just turn the light off. You must find and fix the problem if the light keeps coming back after reset. The $15 code reader I got off ebay will read the codes and display them but will not tell you what the exact problem is. It does have the option of resetting the light.

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Old 10-19-2018, 01:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

I always record the codes and clear as part of my diagnostic routine. I then investigate all possible causes of the codes and how they involve each other. Then I drive to recreate the code and run all emission monitors. There are usually more codes than the one that turned pn the light. Some can be non related and ignored until later.

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Old 10-20-2018, 09:09 AM   #14
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones. back to the bearing.

hi dsat, fdryer and 2lw- very good essay fd. read it carefully. may wind up sending this air injector code anomaly out to my one trusted mechanic. lots of factors to consider which I lack the expertise you bad boys have. have applied lots of my 50 yr. old back yard mechanic skills to the L100 but don't know everything. been driving the L for a week now to troubleshoot the rf wheel bearing job. put everything back according to hoyle and did the torque specs with my new hf click torque wrench. wondering if both front bearings crapped out at the same time. the rf side got the new bearing . noticed that the humming/roaring is gone from it with my thunder road tests, but there seems to be a similar noise from the front left . the car had the original bearings and 177k miles. think it unlikely that both bearings would crap at the same time. when I noticed the humming at the beginning of this melodrama, I applied two tests of the bearings : 1. while driving at speed I turned left and then right to throw the weight on each front wheel bearing- noticed the noise was on the right and not the left. 2. in driveway I jacked up each front wheel separately , started engine, put in 1st let each spin for a while- noticed noise in the rf but not the left front. changed out the rf bearing. noise is still there but on left front. yesterday tried the old jack up each front corner trick, handspin the wheel while holding the coil spring. you tube video said this will tell you which if any bearing is bad by feeling vibration through the spring. felt no vibration in either spring. wondering if im up the creek w/o a paddle(ever been there?). fearing it may be a bad input shaft bearing in the manual transaxle. that could be curtains. need your sagery my bruthas. thanks tons bob f

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Old 10-20-2018, 10:45 AM   #15
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

I've never come across the best way to find a faulty wheel bearing except by inadvertent curb hopping - hitting a curb at an angle in snow. It took a few years before the wheel bearing went and only one hint on the highway at speed this summer. I thought the intermittent humming this summer was a wheel imbalance. The shop I used to mount new rims on tires some years ago showed me which side was faulty, the right front where I bounced off a curb a few years ago. At the time, the only damage was a bent lower control arm. Tie rod wasn't damaged. New wheel bearing fixed that. Lifetime alignment at Firestone.

If I'm not mistaken, wheel bearings are double row ball bearings. My bearing was on the counter when I went to pay the bill. The wide outer case is misleading until looking carefully into the bearing. The inner races are two ball bearings with two inner races. In case one fails the other still supports the wheel hub.

It takes a trained person to find a worn wheel bearing. I wasn't sure where the humming came from but after visiting the tire shop and pointed to the right front wheel as a worn bearing, I put two and two together......

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Old 10-20-2018, 06:30 PM   #16
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Default Re: diagnostics code fast one? hate fast ones.

hi fd- have seen this kind of wheel bearing apart . you are right there are two inner rows of ball bearings. will keep you posted on this problem. bob f

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