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Old 09-21-2018, 02:22 PM   #1
Rj 2000 LS2
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2000 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Sub Frame LS2, 2000

I'm am RjAquaponics, but my logon stop working so I created a new one. Nonetheless, the timing belt I installed is still working and I just changed out the water pump because it let go. Yes, I know I should have changed the water pump while doing the timing belt, but I didn't want to stick any more money into it until I determined if the engine had bent values etc...

Now, its time to replace the Sub Frame... Any ideas where to buy sub frame for a 2000 LS2. There are none in the Wisconsin without rust demons! Ebay has a few, but I am confused by the different versions. One item says it fits almost every Saturn and then others say 2002-2005. Does anyone know how to order the correct version Sub Frame for a 2000 LS2?

Rj

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Old 09-21-2018, 04:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rj 2000 LS2 View Post
......Now, its time to replace the Sub Frame... Any ideas where to buy sub frame for a 2000 LS2. There are none in the Wisconsin without rust demons! Ebay has a few, but I am confused by the different versions. One item says it fits almost every Saturn and then others say 2002-2005. Does anyone know how to order the correct version Sub Frame for a 2000 LS2?

Rj
I would suggest visiting an OEM parts website and comparing part numbers from '00-'05 of L-Series cars with the V6 engine. There is a difference depending on whether the car had an automatic transmission or a manual transmission, and eventually the manual transmission was no longer offered. Frankly, there weren't may V6's paired with the manual trans., but, still, you should be aware of this. Try the link below. You can find others with an easy search. (It goes without saying, but there are no new engine cradles/sub-frames available.)

https://www.gmpartscenter.net/ Ignore the model which appears in the search bars and simply begin your own search. You'll find it under front suspension parts.

http://www.car-part.com/

...
298,000 miles-it keeps on rolling!
The blessings of liberty erode in my country.
Gov't's grown bigger, but a chance exists that it will be reduced. I'm cautiously hopeful.

Last edited by pierrot; 09-21-2018 at 04:44 PM..

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Old 09-23-2018, 06:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

So, Rj 2000 LS2, if you've been able to do your research then you've discovered that the only difference between the two engine cradles depends upon whether or not your car came with an automatic or manual transmission. All L's with the V6 from '00 to '05 with an automatic transmission used the same cradle. The L-Series with the V6 and manual transmission used one cradle and were only available from '00 to'03.

The website car-part.com which is linked in post #2 is for wrecking yards across the country and could help you in finding a decent used engine cradle. Let us know how your search works out.

...
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The blessings of liberty erode in my country.
Gov't's grown bigger, but a chance exists that it will be reduced. I'm cautiously hopeful.

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Old 09-26-2018, 09:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

Thanks guys for the input. Unfortunately, the ebay sellers won't answer specific questions. All I got was, "it will suit your LS2". What does that mean? We can't purchase the part until mid Oct. And, with the weather turning to winter... this is not going to be fun!
Rj

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Old 09-26-2018, 10:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

I have had 9 of these cars, I have taken three completely apart for parts. There are only two choices for sub frames, manual and automatic. The only difference between the manual and automatic subframes is the manual has a mounting tab for the shift linkage.

...
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

hi sages - correct me if im wrong . as a student of Saturn L series, I was told and remember the sales lit said no manuals in the v6. manuals were available in the 2.2 4 but were very uncommon. have only seen 2 in the L since 01, mine and one other sedan in a parking lot . L wagons all had automatics. tried to special order a new L wagon with a manual and they couldn't do it. I had to order mine with the 4 and it took weeks. generally if the timing belt breaks while driving the v6 is shot from bent valves and possibly cracked head and pistons. as you all now this is from the interference design. the 2.2 4 in the L has a timing chain which is much more durable. the owners manual does not specify a scheduled mileage replacement for the chain in the 4 but does for the rubber belt in the v6, I think at 60k miles. my 2.2 in the L100 started making noise at 160k miles and I replaced it, no engine damage. let me know if you've seen different. thanks tons bf

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Old 09-29-2018, 10:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

You have correct information about the availability of stick shifts in v-6 cars. The timing chains are only reliable if you change the oil at proper intervals. I have an engine that has 200,000 miles and is clean on the inside. I drive this car daily and have no worries, I replaced the oil pan and the valve cover gasket.
I purchased a 2002 that had the early oil nozzle with a broken chain at 130k miles, it was clean inside.
I purchased another 2002 with 200,000 miles and had a stretched chain but it looks like it had missed several oil changes. It was out of time enough to not run but with all new timing componenets and a good cleaning it lives on.
The v-6 is an interference engine so when the rubber band breaks it quickly becomes expensive to repair.
The 4 cylinder is also an interference engine, when the chain breaks it also bends most if not all the valves.
There are some L200 wagons out there with stick shifts. I think I read that about 10% of the 4 cylinder cars were stick shifts.

...
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Old 09-30-2018, 07:44 AM   #8
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

hi o2lw- have never seen an L wagon with 3 pedals on the floor and have looked. maybe just the first year(2000?) was available with it. might buy it if I saw one. did you ever see one? do know the sales lit for the 01s said no clutch pedals. did anyone here actually see one? thanks tons bf, last of the itinerant clutch poppers. when I say I prefer them liberals tell me I have communist tendencies. anybody get that kind of lip?

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Old 09-30-2018, 03:39 PM   #9
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

FWIW, my reference to a sub-frame/engine cradle for a V6 with a manual transmission was based on what I saw in the on-line catalogs. What surprised me more as I revisited those catalogs was discovering that the engine cradles are the same regardless of which engine is in the car. The only issue to verify that the correct one is ordered has to do with whether or not it's for a manual transmission.

I'm willing to bet there were others of you who already knew this. Before today, I did not... Oh well... I hope that we will hear back from the OP!

...
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The blessings of liberty erode in my country.
Gov't's grown bigger, but a chance exists that it will be reduced. I'm cautiously hopeful.

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Old 10-02-2018, 11:56 AM   #10
Rj 2000 LS2
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

Sub frame has been ordered. The details indicate it is for an LS2 Automatic.
Rj

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Old 10-02-2018, 12:32 PM   #11
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

Great! Which state is this part coming from? Were you able to see pictures of the engine cradle before ordering it?

...
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Old 10-05-2018, 05:01 PM   #12
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2000 L-Series 2.2L Wagon
Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

I am a bit of a sub-frame expert after changing two of them. Yes, there are only two versions, and they are identical except for the "horn" or prong that supports the shift linkage. The differences in engine and engine placement for the 2.2 Auto vs. Manual are accommodated in the mounting brackets. The rust is worst towards the front and less/better towards the back of the frame. If I have to to do the manual again I will locate an Auto sub-frame and transfer the linkage mount over.

I have personally seen an L-Series Wagon with a stick shift (LW1 or LW200), 2.2 litre of course. AFAIK there are no 6 cylinder manual L-Series cars unless someone built a custom.

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Old 10-06-2018, 09:16 AM   #13
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

hi born again- interesting experience. haven't had to replace mine yet in the manual 4cyl L sedan. some rust but not catastrophic especially since it spent its first 4 years in nj salt and snow(01 model). surmise the repair method is to slightly hoist and support the engine and trans and unbolt the side attachements and the engine/trans bolts to the subframe. anything else particularly aggravating(ie, clusterf#@!ks). that wagon stickshift must have been an older 99 or 00. stick not listed in brochures for 01 and up. standard practice at a dealer then was to discourage the purchase of a stickshift model so they would get a big pay day($3k) to repair a dead auto trans. wasn't it terrible when a backyard mechanic could save the 3k and r and r the clutch himself if he had a 3 pedal tank? tsk tsk, suggests communist tendencies. I know I know I have a bad attitude. give em hell. bf

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Old 10-09-2018, 04:21 PM   #14
Rj 2000 LS2
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

The part arrived and to my best guess it looks right. It is missing a grommet for the radiator. No biggie. Is this the correct sub frame for my 2000 LS2 3.0L Automatic?

I have no idea how to remove the old sub frame and install the new. I bought two large 6 ton jack stands. I should be able to get the Saturn high enough for me to get my old ass underneath to see what I need to do! LOL
Rj
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SubFrame.JPG (98.6 KB, 7 views)

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Old 10-09-2018, 04:43 PM   #15
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

Unless someone comes along with step by step instructions, you could do worse than invest in a Haynes Manual. It has full instructions on removing a sub-frame.

I would also suggest you prep and protect the 'new' sub-frame as well before installing. That way, at least you can be sure it has some protection.

You will need a hydraulic jack or 2 or even an engine hoist.

You will need to disconnect front suspension control arms as they bolt to the sub-frame as does the steering rack. You will need to disconnect the drive shafts. The exhaust on the V6 also runs under the subframe, so that will need disconnecting as will your motor mounts (hence the need for a jack to support the engine/tranny or better still an engine hoist.) The problem with using a jack to support the engine/tranny is when you come to remove the sub-frame, that jack is going to be smack bang in the middle of the sub-frame. An engine hoist avoids that issue. So you have a chunk of dismantling to do!

If you do not have an impact driver, I would strongly suggest buying one. I picked up an electric one from Harbor Freight for about $35.00 ($47 with 20% coupon). It made short work of all the rusty bolts on the front end. I have just done a tranny solenoid replacement job, which involves lowering the sub-frame. My son's car started out as a Northern car, so wasn't at all sure how easy the sub-frame bolts would be to come out. I spent about a week spraying the bolts and surrounding area, than asked my local indi garage (who had the car to do some brake lines) to loosen the sub-frame bolts with their air impact. The bolts are all galvanised and came out with no trouble. The mechanic then popped them back in after slapping on plenty of anti-seize, so my job was less hassle.

There is information which suggest using new bolts and you could do that. They are still available. I have a note in the car file which says they are 12mm x 70mm x 1.50 pitch/Grade 10.9 x 6 qty and 12mm x 30mm x 1.50 pitch/Grade 10.9 x 6 qty. The big bolts are the cradle and the 4 smaller are for the subframe support brackets at the rear. One part # I have is GM 11519002 which is the big cradle bolts. They seem to be about $5.00 each+/-.

So as you can see it is not going to be a Saturday morning job. My tranny job reached out over 2 weekends. Yours could take longer.

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Old 10-10-2018, 12:49 AM   #16
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

As long as the sub-frame came from an L-Series car with an automatic transmission (regardless of the engine paired with it) then you have the correct part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasl22002 View Post
Unless someone comes along with step by step instructions, you could do worse than invest in a Haynes Manual. It has full instructions on removing a sub-frame.
I could not agree more. I have the complete volumes of the 2000 FSMs (yes, including the V6 [L81] engine). The Haynes Manual will be the most useful to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasl22002 View Post
I would also suggest you prep and protect the 'new' sub-frame as well before installing. That way, at least you can be sure it has some protection.
Oh, yes - definitely!

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasl22002 View Post
You will need a hydraulic jack or 2 or even an engine hoist.
The other option is to purchase an Engine Support Fixture similar to the factory item #SA9105E (a GM tool number). Not to be seen as a criticism, but there is no discussion of the use of a hydraulic jack is present in either manual for this service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasl22002 View Post
You will need to disconnect front suspension control arms as they bolt to the sub-frame as does the steering rack. You will need to disconnect the drive shafts. The exhaust on the V6 also runs under the subframe, so that will need disconnecting as will your motor mounts (hence the need for an engine hoist support the engine/tranny. [Edit: pierrot]). So you have a chunk of dismantling to do!
Yup - you sure do.

...
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The blessings of liberty erode in my country.
Gov't's grown bigger, but a chance exists that it will be reduced. I'm cautiously hopeful.

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Old 10-10-2018, 11:48 AM   #17
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

The engine and transmission hang from the unibody. Only the torque arms bolt to the sub frame. I see no need to remove the axles or the struts, just remove the lower control arms. You can unbolt the rack and leave it in the car with the hoses connected.

...
2002 L200/5 loaded, loving my stick shift car now with KYB struts and adjustable rear control arms.

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Old 10-10-2018, 03:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000, Cleaning and Preparing Sub Frame

I took brake cleaner and sprayed an entire can on the Sub Frame. Then, washed it with hot soapy water with a brass brush. Rinsed and dried it. I can see numerous places of surface rust. What do you guys recommend I do next?

Power Wash?
Sand Blast?
Inner coat all metal with oil or tranny fluid?
Just spray Rust Reformer and Paint?

Wisconsin road has consumed every Saturn sub frame in the state! How can I keep this sub frame from rusting?
Rj

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Old 10-10-2018, 08:25 PM   #19
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000, Cleaning and Preparing Sub Frame

Remove as much rust as you possibly can. Then paint it with the strongest type of paint available. (As for what's best, I'd just ask around at a paint store.) If it were me I think I'd give it three coats. Coating the inside with some type of oil couldn't hurt...

...
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The blessings of liberty erode in my country.
Gov't's grown bigger, but a chance exists that it will be reduced. I'm cautiously hopeful.

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Old 10-11-2018, 12:41 AM   #20
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Default Re: Sub Frame LS2, 2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02 LW300 View Post
The engine and transmission hang from the unibody. Only the torque arms bolt to the sub frame.
Kudos to you, sir, for reminding us of this. Whether using a hoist or an engine support bar there is no need to fully disengage the engine from those two mounts: 1) at the front of the engine underneath the air cleaner box, and 2) at the rear of the transmission below the Under Hood Fuse Box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02 LW300 View Post
I see no need to remove the axles or the struts, just remove the lower control arms.
That makes sense to me. By removing the lower control arms from the old engine cradle while leaving them attached to the steering knuckles you eliminate a significant amount of tear down work!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02 LW300 View Post
You can unbolt the rack and leave it in the car with the hoses connected.
Sounds good. If removal of the rack and pinion assembly can be avoided then it should be! How would you suggest that the OP support it after it's been separated from the engine cradle since it is still connected to the steering column? (The joint connection at the column is not strong enough to support the r/p assy. It would stress the joint and the column if it were hanging freely.)

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The blessings of liberty erode in my country.
Gov't's grown bigger, but a chance exists that it will be reduced. I'm cautiously hopeful.

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