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Old 06-14-2018, 05:44 PM   #1
montvue
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2005 VUE 3.5L
Default 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

Hi everyone! I have a 2005 Vue with the 3.5 that is getting coolant into the oil. There is no white smoke being discharged from engine but at different intervals coolant has to be replenished. There is always the milky sludge build up under the oil fill cap and after while new oil begins gaining a creamy look to it. To slow down damage to engine I have been changing oil and filter about every 400 miles. Not a good practice to keep operating this way but for now it will have to do. Another point; After driving, unless I release pressure in the cooling system, after total cool down and upon startup the engine misfires initially and throws said such code which actually clears itself out after three or more startups provided I release pressure after each operation of vehicle. Or I can clear code and light by disconnecting battery momentarily. As a result I release the pressure every time I shut off engine; that way there is no code and no light ever.

I suppose this is indicative of bad head gasket/head but is there a possibility of an intake gasket being the culprit? Or a bad water pump? The engine runs perfect always.

Some pertinent facts along with a little history. I bought the car when it had 116000 miles. Person I bought it from was second owner and stated to his knowledge there had never been timing belt/water pump/tensioner/pulley replacement service done. At 119000 miles I drained radiator to do a flush and refill. I noticed, for lack of a better word, "sparkly" substances in this drained coolant which made me think someone had put a cooling system sealer previously. I was sick but went ahead with flush and fill anyway. After all this the above mentioned problems began and I have kept things going with this constant oil change and cooling system pressure release method. I talked with a Honda Tech and his guess was bad head and of course, recommended replacing the bad head with new and to not trust a used one as warped heads were common.

Any suggestions or comments? I thank you in advance for any/all who provide any expertise or input with this.

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Old 06-15-2018, 06:25 AM   #2
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

Search Honda forums using the same 3.5L engine for other cylinder head failures, if any, to have more info before concluding engine damage. Some things you can do to determine whether or not serious engine damage occurred or not and if repairs will be costly. Remove spark plugs and examine them. Coolant leak from damaged head gaskets would allow coolant into cylinder heads and may appear as droplets on spark plugs since water and oil don't mix. Normal spark plugs should be tan colored with deposits resulting from oil and fuel residues from normal combustion processes. Many spark plug manufacturers provide plug charts to display examples of wear. With plugs removed, a compression test can assess mechanical health. Autozone is one place that loans tools. A wet and dry test can be performed; dry compression testing with gauge connected, wet compression with a squirt of oil into cylinders to allow oil to help piston rings seal if in good condition, expecting higher compression numbers compared to dry tests. 185 psi is the target value for good engines. Higher or lower values as well as a significant drop in one or several cylinders may suggest valve or piston ring damage.

Oil sludge under the oil fill cap can be misleading. Frequent short trip driving won't allow an engine to heat up and boil off condensation collecting every time the engine runs. If driven less than 10 miles a day, warmed oil can vaporize moisture to form on overhead surfaces as droplets, creating sludge. The simplest solution to short trip driving is shorter oil change intervals and/or a weekly drive of an hour or so to allow engine oil to fully warm up and boil out condensed moisture to reduce sludge formation. If driving more than 10 mile per day then the sludge may be coolant leaking into the oil system.

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Old 06-15-2018, 12:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

fdryer, thank you for your reply. I hesitate to evaluate engine damage at this point as it goes without saying, damage to internal components, including restrictions to oil passageways, as well as pertinent affected sensors will be the eventual net result with my present method of operation. My Vue is my only mode of transportation plus for reasons which I will not bore you with, my income is low and fixed so costly repair or replace is out of the question. I do have sufficient tools, and though it be limited, experience in the field of automotive service, repair and rebuild, but that was some years ago. Nowdays, I limit myself to doing mine own preventative maintenance. With that being said, I was contemplating tackling head gasket replacement, and the 105,000 mile service to wit; R&R of timing belt, water pump, tensioner pulley, etc. But, and this is a BIG but, after research and getting info from reliable sources, a warped head would shut down my efforts due to limited funds as the purchase of a new head is cost prohibitive for me. I have approached a Honda Tech and an independent Honda experienced "tuner/rebuilder" in my local area and each confirmed the other, that if a head was warped, only a new head would be the safe way to go as machining of said such bad head would invoke valve timing problems and there is no trusted "special" head gasket that would offset the discrepancy. Same logic applies if head was only cracked, obviously. And if block was cracked, well I am out of luck there also.

Leak down pressure test of cooling system netted me some interesting results. Cold engine pressurization of 15 pounds leaked down to about 10 1/2 before stopping within 10 minutes. Engine at normal operating temperature and pressured up to same 15 pounds leaked down to about 9 in same time period then remained steady. Both times, at engine start up immediately after each test, engine misfired a couple of times, enough to throw a misfire code, then went back to a normal and smooth idle. In playing around with my own experimentation of releasing pressure from the system immediately after shutting off engine no misfire occurred nor was there a CEL. I have resorted to this process each and every time I shut down engine thus eliminating the process of the pressure pushing coolant into affected cylinder, however it is during normal operation of engine that I can not control this loss of coolant and believe me, there is a loss as I have to replenish coolant about every 200 miles or so. This amounts to about a quart of premixed Dexcool. I use car only for in town driving as extended driving at highway speeds would only speed up coolant loss, not to mention the speeding up of oil being diluted with coolant. A side note....never do I see the telltale sign of white vapor coming out of exhaust but there have been times when I have shut engine down momentarily, for whatever reason, and at restart the exhaust stinks of the smell of coolant being induced into combustion chamber.

I guess I am at an impasse....with all things considered....drive 'er til she quits. In my first post I inquired whether this problem could possibly be from a bad intake/gasket or possibly a bad water pump but in retrospect, neither of these choices could be correct. Guess I was just hoping for a simpler, less expensive resolution.

Both of the aforementioned Honda guys I talked to admitted there was the possibility of stretched head bolts. Both have confirmed the other that though this mighty engine was built by Honda and received the Honda nomenclature of J35A3, it was assembled with GM guidelines that differentiated the J35A3 from the GM L66 version. The differences included not only the L66 receiving a cast iron alloy crankshaft in place of Honda's steel billeted but also the head bolts were made to different than Honda, specs. Interesting, huh?

Again fdryer, thank you for your input and I commend you for taking the time. Any and all others that may be reading this and has a little input or even a comment, feel free to do so.

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Old 06-15-2018, 02:25 PM   #4
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

Spark plug examination/replacement, wet and dry compression testing are free and don't cost anything except time and effort. I'm at a loss why two Honda techs didn't recommend these suggestions. Speculating is all well and good but assessing thru tests can help without doing any more harm. If cylinder heads are leaking, examining spark plugs can verify it.

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Old 06-15-2018, 05:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

fdryer, again I thank you for your well meaning reply to my situation. Not wanting to get long winded about the whole deal I eliminated foreclosure of all the other steps and time spent I went through to get to where I am at presently. My spark plugs were pulled and evaluated....all perfect iridiums. Coils tested....all well within parameters of being serviceable. Reason for checking these out? OBDII caught a P0302 code. After on again off again of same misfire over a period of time I would get the stench of burned coolant in the garage....no white smoke but the strong smell was apparent. As an ex motorhead, circle track racer, engine rebuilder, I knew the odor well and with initially discovering the silver content in the old coolant, the reoccurring misfire of same cylinder, and by now noticing a drop in the level of cooling system reservoir I started putting 2 and 2 together. This ultimately sent me on a mission of discovery to my long time friend who is a 29 year ASE Tech who just so happened to be the shop manager and long time employee of our local Honda dealer. I bounced all the info of my dilemma off onto him which happened to coincide during a time while he was talking with another of his friends who was the aforementioned independent Honda tuner/builder. One of the first items of discussion was, "did I pull the plugs?" so you can no longer feel hard pressed.

At any rate, I understand how difficult it can be to make sense of everything when trying to grasp an understanding and then establish a step by step, by the numbers suggestion for possibilities on one of these forums. Though they are sometimes invaluable for the general lay person or general uninformed public who are only trying to save a buck, the forum can be wrought with misinformation or in my case, lack thereof. You, being the respondent, had no way, without me stringing out a long long tirade, of knowing every detail.

In finality, I guess I knew already the end story but was curious if maybe anyone on this forum had run across a situation like mine and made discovery of reasons why. I have never torn down a J35A3/L66 so I thought, seeing as how I became a member of this forum, mostly for trolling for info about the Vue, why not put my problem to the guys on this forum....see what info I could gather that I already was unaware of.

A question to you, fdryer....Had I not already read the plugs and had I did as you suggested and had I reported back to you that plugs were good, where then might you have directed me? Just curious.

My hat is off to you and Far2grumpy for your input on this forum. You two try to direct all of us "noobies" as best you can, given the circumstances to which you have to deal with. Thank you.

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Old 06-15-2018, 06:24 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

Your explanation clears up what I couldn't know as many posts leave little to go by. My knowledge can 'fit on the head of a pin' with zero certification as an ASE tech. I belong to the hundreds of thousands of diyers. When plugs come out clean without any hint of coolant drops or wetness, this suggests had gaskets aren't damaged. If a head gasket was damaged then compression, in theory, should pump up coolant pressures well above normal. If a coolant pressure gauge shows above 20 psi, this suggests a head gasket failure. The fuel/air mixture, burned and unburned, should be mixing with coolant. With good friends that are also knowledgeable about your engine, they're usually advantageous but sometimes gets in the way from 'too many chiefs and no indians' syndrome. No disrespect.

While not a professional, my personal experience among supposedly trained electronic technicians has shown examples of chiefs among indians that couldn't solve a simple problem that took less than a few minutes of honest assessment. A switch in the wrong position is one example keeping a million dollar piece of equipment down for hours. Older style computer ribbon cables without a key to prevent incorrect installation is another incident keeping expensive equipment down from more 'chiefs' doing more harm than good. I never aspired to be a chief and saw examples of incompetents caught up in armchair quarterback discussions, throwing in parts including the kitchen sink while lost in group disorder. Where I worked, a 24/7 operation required three shifts of indians to maintain equipment. I along with a few good men always seemed to clean up after the previous shift of incompetents. No fun but experience in going in behind downed equipment left by 'trained' techs is frustrating. I've retired from the circus but still remember how incompetents still invade a small group of key people. I learned long ago to ask smarter people than myself to be more informed on things I know I lack knowledge of.

I am intrigued about this problem and cannot make any more suggestions since I can only be so much of an armchair quarterback before getting dirty with a hands on approach. At my age, my idea of getting down and dirty is in an airconditioned garage or service bay with cold air blowing to keep sweating at bay while brainstorming. Hopefully you find the problem and embarrass us when sharing your findings. There's always something to learn while looking over a shoulder.

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Old 06-15-2018, 09:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by montvue View Post
After driving, unless I release pressure in the cooling system, after total cool down and upon startup the engine misfires initially and throws said such code which actually clears itself out after three or more startups provided I release pressure after each operation of vehicle.
Coolant leaking into the cylinder after shutdown causing misfire on startup by quenching spark until it's expelled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by montvue View Post
At 119000 miles I drained radiator to do a flush and refill. I noticed, for lack of a better word, "sparkly" substances in this drained coolant which made me think someone had put a cooling system sealer previously. I was sick but went ahead with flush and fill anyway. After all this the above mentioned problems began
Your flush washed out the sealer allowing the head gasket to leak again. Best move at this point is to try some sealer to replace what was removed. Might work 100 miles, 1,000 miles or over 10,000 miles. Worth a shot to keep it going. Not worth paying for major engine work on something only worth $2-3,000. Best to list on Craigslist for $1200 and take the first $700 offer, then buy something else. If you wait until it dies, you won't get $300.

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Old 06-16-2018, 06:12 AM   #8
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

Another method of checking to see if there's a bad head or head gasket would be to have someone with an emissions testing station hold the tailpipe probe over the radiator fill (remove the cap). Once the thermostat opens and the coolant is flowing, you can often pick up traces of exhaust gases in the coolant if there is a bad gasket or cracked block/head. That's worked for me on a number of occasions.

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...
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:51 AM   #9
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

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Originally Posted by atikovi View Post
Coolant leaking into the cylinder after shutdown causing misfire on startup by quenching spark until it's expelled.



Your flush washed out the sealer allowing the head gasket to leak again. Best move at this point is to try some sealer to replace what was removed. Might work 100 miles, 1,000 miles or over 10,000 miles. Worth a shot to keep it going. Not worth paying for major engine work on something only worth $2-3,000. Best to list on Craigslist for $1200 and take the first $700 offer, then buy something else. If you wait until it dies, you won't get $300.
atikovi, thank you for your input. Very much "right on" I might add, matching mine own conclusions. Not sure the route I will proceed with at this time. The Vue is totally awesome in regards to the rest of it. The transmission has had the recall for "shuddering" performed and has had a complete replenish and refill done to it and operates perfectly. Every option on this specific Vue works as it should, right down to the heated seats. But then again, another problem could be right around the corner. Another low buck vehicle will come with it's own demons so this is now where I am. Do I repair problem or sell Vue and take chance on another low buck vehicle? BTW, selling, especially a Saturn of any kind, but more specifically a Saturn with major repairs needed, can be a very daunting situation. I could hopefully sell it to an unsuspecting person for more than it is worth as it runs like a champ, that is until the first startup after engine has cooled down in which case the "buyer beware" clause will prevent buyer from coming back at me once mechanical issue is figured out. I will not do that. Sure, I had it done to me obviously, as seller to me, had hidden problem with a sealer which really embarrasses me being an ex-mechanic. I should have immediately seen the discolored reservoir/purge tank and evaluated from there. In both cases I did not. My loss, his gain. That hurts and creates much angst but I will not do that to another.

Again, thank you for your input, I appreciate that and agree with your own diagnosis and prognosis.

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Old 06-18-2018, 11:29 AM   #10
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by VUEmaniac View Post
Another method of checking to see if there's a bad head or head gasket would be to have someone with an emissions testing station hold the tailpipe probe over the radiator fill (remove the cap). Once the thermostat opens and the coolant is flowing, you can often pick up traces of exhaust gases in the coolant if there is a bad gasket or cracked block/head. That's worked for me on a number of occasions.

Best,
Thanks VUEmaniac.....hee hee, I chuckle at your name. I too am leaning towards being maniacal, maybe for entirely different reasons, but maniacal nonetheless.

Appreciate your suggestion. Conclusions drawn by myself, two very experienced Honda Techs, even evaluations of another member of this forum, plus all that I have previously gone through as mentioned in earlier posts, I think it is well proven what problem is. I just brought this to the attention of the forum members more for feedback of other possibilities of this mechanical breakdown other than head gasket or even head or block failure. What brought on this curiosity was the finding or lack thereof, of bubbles in the reservoir/purge tank while engine is idling. In theory, they should be present but mysterically, are not. No telltale "white" exhaust smoke neither. There is only the obvious disappearance of coolant, the sickening stench of combusted coolant at startup, and the misfiring at startup provided I had not released pressure from cooling system after last operation of engine. I am surprised that waste of combustion under cylinder pressures is not getting back into cooling system seeing as how it is obvious coolant is gaining access to cylinder. There too, should be excessive pressure in cooling system, even at idle but there is not. That scenario is most likely "just around the corner" as I still drive vehicle. BTW, there are no leakages of coolant anywhere and system maintains operable pressure. (note, see results of cooling system pressure testing in previous post) The thermostat is a new Denso. I even removed it and replaced with old one that had tested as OK initially then even ran without stat in place. Pressure cap was replaced even though the original seemed fine. Neither of these actions altered results. Just so you know.

Again, thank you for your feedback, VUEmaniac!

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Old 06-18-2018, 11:39 AM   #11
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

You can get low mileage 3.5L JDM engines for $400-$500.

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Old 06-19-2018, 10:29 AM   #12
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

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You can get low mileage 3.5L JDM engines for $400-$500.
atikovi.....Good suggestion! I checked them out online and presently they offer for sale a Honda specific J35A series engine for $1300.00 plus. A number of other outlets for online sales run anywhere from $600.00 upward and don't forget shipping and core charge. One outlet showed exact duplication of my engine from a Vue with less than 90,000 miles and no shipping charge, and no core charge for about the same monies as JDM, plus they offer what seems to be a valid warranty, but you never know. I will give them a call plus do some research on this outfit and if all checks out may go that way.

Thank you for your reply. Wish me luck! :dizzy

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Old 06-19-2018, 10:56 AM   #13
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Default Re: 2005 vue 3.5 coolant in oil

Get a block tester.

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