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Old 03-22-2018, 05:02 AM   #1
Raincitygears
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1999 SL2
Default Multiple codes

I purchased a second Saturn, a 1999 SL2 with 220k miles, this one to fix up for a family member as a daily driver. It was $250, ran and drive, and the transmission (automatic) seems solid. There were several codes that popped up on my reader during my initial inspection:

Confirmed Codes
P0122 - Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Low
P0133 - O2 Sensor Circuit Slow Response Bank 1 Sensor 1
P0405 - EGR Sensor "A" Circuit Low
P0105 - Manifold Absolute Pressure/Barometric Pressure Sensor Circuit
P1404 - Check report for description (<- this was all it listed as)
P0410 - AIR System

Pending Codes
P0405 - EGR Sensor "A" Circuit Low
P0410 - AIR System

The car had been sitting for a couple of months, and the battery was dead so it needed a jump. When the car started there was some white smoke coming out near the intake manifold and white smoke out of the exhaust when the seller gave it some gas, but after a few seconds, the smoke cleared up on both ends and hasn't come back since. It drives pretty rough, with some idling and revving issues, but I got it home safely. The motor mounts are definitely bad, so I can't get a good feel for engine performance related rattles or anything.

The first thing I did was slap in a new air filter, as the old one was pretty clogged, and then I scanned again. Only one code came back: P0405. I unbolted the EGR valve and discovered a soda can gasket stuck on there. A hole had already been blown through the main opening so it was no longer bypassing the valve. I cleaned up the valve with throttle body cleaner and the pintle was a little sticky, but all in all, it wasn't too bad. I haven't put it back on yet, so I will see if that clears up the P0405. If it doesn't, I can swap in the EGR from my other Saturn (which is working perfectly) to see if it's the valve itself or another problem. I do need to try and get that code cleared quickly because this model year is up for emissions and I can't register the car until it passes. Fingers crossed it's the valve, because then I can just use the other one to complete the test and then buy a replacement later.

My question is, most of those codes based on my forum research seem to have solutions involving sensors and electrical components. So, altogether, what kind of picture do they present and why would they be popping up in tandem?

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Old 03-22-2018, 05:34 AM   #2
Raincitygears
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Default Re: Multiple codes

Entirely possible I'm dealing with an aftermarket EGR valve as well. From the videos I've seen, and my other Saturn, the OEM one should have a T20 torx head on the pintle, but this '99 SL2 pintle has a Phillips screwdriver head on the pintle instead.

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Old 03-22-2018, 09:47 AM   #3
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Default Re: Multiple codes

Aftermarket pintels are actually adjustable, so head to a wrecking yard and grab a stock EGR, a Throttle Body, a MAP sensor, and an O2 Sensor.

The circuit low on TPS means the TPS sensor has failed.

Fixing the EGR MAY solve the P1404, as this is a dealership code for a TSB concerning the EGR performance as being stuck in the "Open" position. Dealers would reprogram the PCM, to correct the problem.

https://www.engine-codes.com/p1404_chevrolet.html

I would start with making sure a STOCK EGR valve is installed with a stock gasket, first.

Once you have a good EGR, this code may clear itself after the reset.

Slow response from the O2 sensor is indicative of a defective O2 sensor.

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Old 03-22-2018, 10:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: Multiple codes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raincitygears View Post
My question is, most of those codes based on my forum research seem to have solutions involving sensors and electrical components. So, altogether, what kind of picture do they present and why would they be popping up in tandem?
I would only worry about the codes that came back. A lot of the "low/slow" codes are set if a condition isn't met within a certain time or reaches a certain level within a certain time, and that could be the result of having sat for months.

Complete list of powertrain codes for Saturn
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44822

breaking down OBD II codes
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44819

you can find the body, network and chassis codes by searching the how to library for threads started by wolfman (using teh advanced search option)

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26

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Old 03-22-2018, 12:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: Multiple codes

When you get started with an "unknown" car like this, it is always wise to take compression readings first... and peek at the spark plugs at the same time.

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Old 03-22-2018, 12:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: Multiple codes

I literally just bought a car with the P0405 and P1404 codes as well. Cleaning the EGR fixed both of them for me. Not sure why they popped up in tandem, but the fix was the same. A good cleaning.

And if it was just the electrical connection causing the error, just the act of re-seating the connection during removal could have done it.

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Old 03-22-2018, 12:59 PM   #7
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Default Re: Multiple codes

P1404 occurs when the voltage level of the EGR reference is lower than the learned voltage, for a closed EGR valve.(So the PCM thinks the valve is "Open")

This is stated, in the link I posted. A sticking/incorrectly-positioned pintle MAY cause this code. Cleaning the pintle and assembly will restore functionality, hence why the P1404 will clear itself.

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Old 03-24-2018, 03:57 AM   #8
Raincitygears
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Default Re: Multiple codes

Good news is, I believe it is the EGR valve that went bad. I took the aftermarket one out of the '99 and popped it onto my '97 (whose OEM one I know works so it had a completely clean bill of health), and suddenly up popped P0141 (O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Bank 1 Sensor 2) and that pesky P0405 (EGR Sensor "A" Circuit Low). Just to make sure that it's just the valve that's bad and nothing else, I put the healthy OEM one on the '99 SL2, cleared the old codes, and P0405 didn't come back when I ran the engine for a few minutes and scanned again.

Bad news is, in the middle of the test drive using the '97 OEM valve, I ran a third code check and picked up a cylinder #2 misfire and also the P0410 (AIR system) returned. Fortunately, the #2 misfire was just due to a fouled up spark plug. I decided to do the compression test at that point as well. The dry test went:

#1 - 120 psi
#2 - 120 psi
#3 - 120 psi
#4 - 90 psi

The dreaded bullet at the end. That explains the rough idle. Unfortunately, because I let myself be hurried by freezing cold and rain (I don't have a garage so I do all my work outside), I did a hack job on the compression test by not disconnecting anything first and now the car won't start. I can hear the fuel pump click but I get no crank. Hopefully I didn't blow the distributor and the spark plugs just need to dry out. I smell fuel on them.

I was unable to do a wet test to determine whether it's rings or valves, but based on the other symptoms, wouldn't it make sense for it to be a bad exhaust valve? I need to get the car up and running to finish the test and be sure, but I'm thinking that's the problem.

Last edited by Raincitygears; 03-24-2018 at 04:12 AM..

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Old 03-24-2018, 08:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: Multiple codes

^^ you said "Hopefully I didn't blow the distributor"....
Er, there is no distributor on y'all's saturn, it has 2 coil packs and an ignition module they plug into to 'distribute' the electric current to the spark plugs.

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Old 03-24-2018, 11:08 AM   #10
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Default Re: Multiple codes

Did you have the throttle held wide-open when reading compression? I'm guessing not, as that would have invoked "flood clear" mode and prevented flooding even if nothing was disconnected. If WOT wasn't used during compression test, you need to test it again.

I wouldn't bother with a wet test, ring/cylinder wear seems to be a rare problem with these engines because of the "over oiling" due to poor piston design. That also causes excessive oil burn, a whole different concern...

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Old 03-27-2018, 02:05 AM   #11
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Default Re: Multiple codes

So, turns out, the battery was just run down. Before throwing parts at it, I ran through the standard "no-start" diagnostics and immediately pegged the battery. It needed a jump when I bought it and hadn't had an opportunity to charge up enough. I hooked it up to a trickle charger for a couple of hours and it was good to go. No flooded condition, no bad coils.

It started up, but then started throwing a cylinder #4 misfire along with a bunch of other codes. I finally just changed out all the plugs to standard copper ACDelcos, snugged down the wires, and fired it up. All the codes cleared up. And, lo and behold, the new plugs fixed the rough idle and the high revving! I'm guessing the old ones must have been iridium plated or something. Crazy how an $11 fix made the engine go from shaking so bad it looked like it was going to explode to perfectly normal. A junkyard EGR valve that I cleaned out thoroughly cleared up the P0405. She drives pretty smoothly now.

It also needed a new SES bulb, as it had never been lit up and I was getting P1651 and P1650. The bulb was completely missing from the socket. Nice.

I did not redo the compression test yet, as I would just rather focus on getting emissions tackled first. The car has a clean bill of health, except I keep getting an intermittent P0410 AIR System code. I'll clear it, then it comes back whenever other trouble codes have popped up. It's gone for now, though. If it's intermittent, does that have more to do with the fact that the pump is starting to fail, or is there just too much carbon build up in the system?

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Old 03-27-2018, 07:37 AM   #12
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Default Re: Multiple codes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raincitygears View Post
Good news is, I believe it is the EGR valve that went bad. I took the aftermarket one out of the '99 and popped it onto my '97 (whose OEM one I know works so it had a completely clean bill of health), and suddenly up popped P0141 (O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Bank 1 Sensor 2) and that pesky P0405 (EGR Sensor "A" Circuit Low). Just to make sure that it's just the valve that's bad and nothing else, I put the healthy OEM one on the '99 SL2, cleared the old codes, and P0405 didn't come back when I ran the engine for a few minutes and scanned again.

Bad news is, in the middle of the test drive using the '97 OEM valve, I ran a third code check and picked up a cylinder #2 misfire and also the P0410 (AIR system) returned. Fortunately, the #2 misfire was just due to a fouled up spark plug. I decided to do the compression test at that point as well. The dry test went:


#1 - 120 psi
#2 - 120 psi
#3 - 120 psi
#4 - 90 psi


The dreaded bullet at the end. That explains the rough idle. Unfortunately, because I let myself be hurried by freezing cold and rain (I don't have a garage so I do all my work outside), I did a hack job on the compression test by not disconnecting anything first and now the car won't start. I can hear the fuel pump click but I get no crank. Hopefully I didn't blow the distributor and the spark plugs just need to dry out. I smell fuel on them.

I was unable to do a wet test to determine whether it's rings or valves, but based on the other symptoms, wouldn't it make sense for it to be a bad exhaust valve? I need to get the car up and running to finish the test and be sure, but I'm thinking that's the problem.
Your compression is extremely low on ALL Cylinders. The standard PSI across all Cylinders should be at a MINIMUM of 185 PSI.

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Old 04-02-2018, 04:18 AM   #13
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Default Re: Multiple codes

Ran down the diagnostic for the air pump, which was all good. Took off the exhaust manifold. It was completely gunked up, and one side of the exhaust port to cylinder 4 was entirely blocked with rock hard carbon. Might explain the low compression? Cleaned out the manifold, cleaned out the exhaust port, cleaned out the air injection ports. Put on new Fel-Pro gaskets to the manifold and the exhaust flange.

Put everything back together, fired it up, and bam, pending P0410 code (AIR System). It also had a high idle, about 2k RPM. Turns out I forgot to connect one last vacuum hose on the diverter valve. High idle went away, but it popped a pending (not confirmed) P1404 (EGR "A" Control Circuit Range/Performance). Leftover carbon dislodging?

Drove it around the block, felt good, so I drove it to the store. Inside the store for maybe 15 minutes, came out, the engine cranked but wouldn't catch. Tried a second time, it went, but started to die as I pulled forward so I parked again and turned it off. Then I successfully started it, put it in neutral, and revved the engine. White smoke came out of the exhaust, like I was Seafoaming it or something. Shut it off, topped off the oil (it was getting low), checked the coolant for leaks, everything looked good. Started again, no white smoke, and I drove it home. When I parked, it started idling high again, 2k RPM. Then I shut it down for the day.

Is this normal since the air has been blocked for so long, or what do I need to check?

Last edited by Raincitygears; 04-02-2018 at 04:24 AM..

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Old 04-02-2018, 02:09 PM   #14
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Default Re: Multiple codes

The 2k high idle may still be a vacuum leak. Check all vacuum hoses for dry rot, cracking damage. The P0410 error code is all about the air pump system running at engine startup to blow air into the exhaust system to help heat up the catalytic converter for the emissions control system. It can operate for up to three minutes. The error occurs when air isn't pumped into the exhaust system - the O2 sensor detects a lean air/fuel mixture when air is pumped into the exhaust system. If the O2 sensor doesn't detect the lean condition from pumped in air, the error code is generated.

1-The air pump is commanded on by the pcm. Does the air pump run or not when the engine is started?

2-After a short delay to allow the pump to run up to speed, the pcm commands the air pump solenoid to power up. This valve opens for vacuum to power the combination vacuum valve. When the vacuum valve opens, pumped air is fed to the air pipe into the exhaust manifold.

The air pump should be heard running. The air pump solenoid use 12v to operate and can be tested by powering it with 12v then blowing thru the combination valve to see if air flows thru both ports.

The air pump wears out, the air pump solenoid fails, the combination valve fails, the air pump fuse blows and the air pump relay can fail. These are the things to check.
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File Type: jpg air pump flowchart.jpg (166.1 KB, 2 views)

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Old 04-02-2018, 03:25 PM   #15
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Default Re: Multiple codes

If we are talking about the 1997 model, I would check the TPS resistance with a digital multimeter as well.

Vacuum leaks will cause cylinder misfire and high idle, which will have multiple DTCs attached to it.

The failing TPS may not cause a DTC.

The white smoke would have me checking the coolant level when the car is level and with a cold engine, as coolant will turn into steam in your exhaust.

The white smoke could also just be unburned fuel.

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Old 04-02-2018, 10:23 PM   #16
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Default Re: Multiple codes

I purchased a '93 SL2 that wasn't running and had nearly 15 codes set in it including a few transmission codes. I replaced the engine coolant temperature sensor, and EVERY ONE OF THE CODES went away, the car started, and ran well. I drove it for 5 years after that, and sold it, having put barely any more money in the car but for maintenance.

So for less than $10, I'd start there, then work up.

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Old 04-10-2018, 11:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: Multiple codes

The conclusion:

Car started and ran just fine after letting it sit overnight. No smoke, no shudders. I drove it around town and did as many OBDII cycles as possible to check off the legally required number of modules. As it clocked a few dozen more miles, the high idle (which was only in park or neutral) eventually went away on its own. I assume the computer just needed to relearn its idle strategies after being reset. None of the codes returned, and I was able to successfully pass the emissions test and got the car registered before I started incurring penalty fees.

I re-did a proper compression test, and I now have even compression across all four cylinders. The low compression in cylinder 4 was caused by the carbon build up blocking the exhaust port, so the valves and rings check out fine.

Happy ending all around. Healthy engine, no SES light, no codes. Now for the real work!

Thanks for all the help and suggestions, everyone. I appreciate it.

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