SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series General
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-16-2018, 08:32 PM   #1
batchley13
New Member
batchley13 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 6

1997 SL1
Default Top end clean

So I recently joined this forum but have referenced it multiple times since I bought my 97 sl1. Just broke 200k on her. I have been using more oil than usual. 1 quart every 1k miles. I keep up with it and have read multiple posts on here about it. So I took the plugs out today and poured some b12 in the cylinders to clean it up. What concerned me though was the plugs. I did a tune up probably 1.5 years ago. I did the coil, wires, and plugs. The plugs don't look good. I like ngk but they didn't have them when I did it so I put ac Delco in there. Anyway, they have white corrosion on them.
I drive 130 miles round trip everyday for work. All freeway at 75 to 85 mph. I bought this car soley for commuting. It's done great. I hope i can reduce oil consumption with this clean. I read about doing it on here. Anyway check the pic of the plug out and let me know what you guys think. Performance has been fine as well as mpg.
Tia
Well the pic upload keeps failing. I'll have to figure this out later

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to batchley13's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help batchley13 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
batchley13 is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 03-16-2018, 08:48 PM   #2
batchley13
New Member
batchley13 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 6

1997 SL1
Default Re: Top end clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by batchley13 View Post
So I recently joined this forum but have referenced it multiple times since I bought my 97 sl1. Just broke 200k on her. I have been using more oil than usual. 1 quart every 1k miles. I keep up with it and have read multiple posts on here about it. So I took the plugs out today and poured some b12 in the cylinders to clean it up. What concerned me though was the plugs. I did a tune up probably 1.5 years ago. I did the coil, wires, and plugs. The plugs don't look good. I like ngk but they didn't have them when I did it so I put ac Delco in there. Anyway, they have white corrosion on them.
I drive 130 miles round trip everyday for work. All freeway at 75 to 85 mph. I bought this car soley for commuting. It's done great. I hope i can reduce oil consumption with this clean. I read about doing it on here. Anyway check the pic of the plug out and let me know what you guys think. Performance has been fine as well as mpg.
Tia
Well the pic upload keeps failing. I'll have to figure this out later

Pic attached now
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot_20180316-184622.jpg (146.3 KB, 67 views)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to batchley13's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help batchley13 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
batchley13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2018, 09:08 AM   #3
fetchitfido
Super Member
fetchitfido has much to be proud offetchitfido has much to be proud offetchitfido has much to be proud offetchitfido has much to be proud offetchitfido has much to be proud offetchitfido has much to be proud offetchitfido has much to be proud offetchitfido has much to be proud offetchitfido has much to be proud offetchitfido has much to be proud of
 
fetchitfido's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 13,706
 

2001 SC2
Default Re: Top end clean

You'll see a significant drop in oil consumption by slowing down to 70mph, so RPM's are at or just below 3000. Or swap in a MP2 5th gear to do the same thing (oh, you already have it, didn't catch the SL1 bit at first).

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fetchitfido's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fetchitfido reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fetchitfido is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2018, 08:18 AM   #4
Saturn Night
Master Member
Saturn Night is a jewel in the roughSaturn Night is a jewel in the roughSaturn Night is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Leavittsburg, OH
Posts: 2,460

1995 SC2
Default Re: Top end clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by batchley13 View Post
Pic attached now
Combustion temperatures are too high, due to a lean air/fuel ratio.

Lean conditions can be caused by vacuum leaks, an incorrectly functioning EGR, a failing O2 sensor, a bad MAP sensor, or too low of octane fuel.

Does the "Service Engine Soon" light stay on, or flash intermittently while driving?

...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Saturn Night's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Saturn Night reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Saturn Night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2018, 02:42 PM   #5
Saturn Night
Master Member
Saturn Night is a jewel in the roughSaturn Night is a jewel in the roughSaturn Night is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Leavittsburg, OH
Posts: 2,460

1995 SC2
Default Re: Top end clean

Switching to a colder spark plug can also correct the issue you are seeing with these plugs.

...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Saturn Night's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Saturn Night reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Saturn Night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2018, 10:25 AM   #6
batchley13
New Member
batchley13 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 6

1997 SL1
Default Re: Top end clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
Combustion temperatures are too high, due to a lean air/fuel ratio.

Lean conditions can be caused by vacuum leaks, an incorrectly functioning EGR, a failing O2 sensor, a bad MAP sensor, or too low of octane fuel.

Does the "Service Engine Soon" light stay on, or flash intermittently while driving?
Thanks for the input. I have replaced the EGR valve and O2 sensor. I put the 87 octane in. I have never put high octane in any vehicle I have ever owned. the only thing I put high octane in is my dirt bike.

I do not have a service engine light. last time it came on I replaced the o2 sensor and it cleared. I have never replaced the MAP sensor. As far as I know there is not a vacuum leak.

I did notice a big difference after cleaning the top end. The entire time I have owned this car, it has never started well. It has always taken 3 or 4 cycles of turning the key to get it to start. I thought all of the stuff I have done to it would have fixed this but none of it did. After cleaning the top end, it starts right up. It also has more pickup and just runs better. I really just drove it for the first time this morning since cleaning it. I will check the oil at the end of the week and see if it has made a difference.

The spark plugs do worry me though. That is a lot of corrosion for only having been in there for a year. Sounds like maybe I should do the MAP sensor. If its cheap I will go ahead and do it.

Thanks for your help.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to batchley13's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help batchley13 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
batchley13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2018, 11:01 AM   #7
cgg17
Member
cgg17 is on a distinguished road
 
cgg17's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 169

1994 SL2
1999 SL2
Default Re: Top end clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by batchley13 View Post
Thanks for the input. I have replaced the EGR valve and O2 sensor. I put the 87 octane in. I have never put high octane in any vehicle I have ever owned. the only thing I put high octane in is my dirt bike.

I do not have a service engine light. last time it came on I replaced the o2 sensor and it cleared. I have never replaced the MAP sensor. As far as I know there is not a vacuum leak.

I did notice a big difference after cleaning the top end. The entire time I have owned this car, it has never started well. It has always taken 3 or 4 cycles of turning the key to get it to start. I thought all of the stuff I have done to it would have fixed this but none of it did. After cleaning the top end, it starts right up. It also has more pickup and just runs better. I really just drove it for the first time this morning since cleaning it. I will check the oil at the end of the week and see if it has made a difference.

The spark plugs do worry me though. That is a lot of corrosion for only having been in there for a year. Sounds like maybe I should do the MAP sensor. If its cheap I will go ahead and do it.

Thanks for your help.
After dumping it in the cylinders, how long did you let it sit? And you add it to the gas? Id love to do this with my 99 Sl2 since it does burn some oil and seems a little more sluggish than I would expect.

...
1994 Sl2 5spd: 56,576 (Totaled 1/10/2018)
1999 Sl2 4spd: 93,5xx

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to cgg17's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help cgg17 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
cgg17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2018, 01:05 PM   #8
batchley13
New Member
batchley13 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 6

1997 SL1
Default Re: Top end clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgg17 View Post
After dumping it in the cylinders, how long did you let it sit? And you add it to the gas? Id love to do this with my 99 Sl2 since it does burn some oil and seems a little more sluggish than I would expect.
Yeah,
I read about that on here. The thread I read on it said to let it soak for at least 2 hours. It also specified how many OZ to dump in there. I bought the B12 because someone had responded in that thread and recommended it. The problem with these motors is the oil rings getting clogged. Its annoying. I have read other stuff on here about guys installing these elaborate oil bypass filters. The cleaner you can keep the oil the less it will burn. I was surprised to even see that in the owners manual. It suggests more frequent oil changes.
But to answer your question, I just equally distributed all of the B12 that I had in the container it came in. I have no idea how many ounces ended up in each cylinder. and instead of 2 hours of soak, I let it soak all weekend. I finger threaded the plugs back on there and closed the hood. I removed the plugs again on Sunday. The thread I read on here said to turn the motor over to eject the remaining B12 out of the cylinder and do disengage the ignition or spark or whatever. I did not see the point in unplugging the coil. I figured if the plugs are disconnected and the plug wires are just laying there, what is going to happen if I just turn it over? Well turns out nothing bad happened. The remaining cleaner came out of only 1 cylinder. the cleaner did make it past the rings and ended up in the oil pan. I changed the oil and I could tell it had some of the cleaner in it.
I will say that it took quite a while to get the car started again. I was kind of worried a little bit. I didn't drain the battery all the way trying to do it, but I was concerned that I would because it took a lot of cranking to get it to fire. When it did plumes of white smoke came out as it burned up all the crap that was still in the cylinder.
Runs great now though. Glad I did it.

I have a feeling it was much needed. It has burned more oil over time. We will see how this does. Like I said though, it is much more throttle responsive and starts better.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to batchley13's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help batchley13 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
batchley13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2018, 03:26 PM   #9
Saturn Night
Master Member
Saturn Night is a jewel in the roughSaturn Night is a jewel in the roughSaturn Night is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Leavittsburg, OH
Posts: 2,460

1995 SC2
Default Re: Top end clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by batchley13 View Post
Thanks for the input. I have replaced the EGR valve and O2 sensor. I put the 87 octane in. I have never put high octane in any vehicle I have ever owned. the only thing I put high octane in is my dirt bike.

I do not have a service engine light. last time it came on I replaced the o2 sensor and it cleared. I have never replaced the MAP sensor. As far as I know there is not a vacuum leak.

I did notice a big difference after cleaning the top end. The entire time I have owned this car, it has never started well. It has always taken 3 or 4 cycles of turning the key to get it to start. I thought all of the stuff I have done to it would have fixed this but none of it did. After cleaning the top end, it starts right up. It also has more pickup and just runs better. I really just drove it for the first time this morning since cleaning it. I will check the oil at the end of the week and see if it has made a difference.

The spark plugs do worry me though. That is a lot of corrosion for only having been in there for a year. Sounds like maybe I should do the MAP sensor. If its cheap I will go ahead and do it.

Thanks for your help.
Order a WIX brand fuel filter, which can also cause issues with hard starting.

There is a rubber O-Ring, that can cause a vacuum leak on the MAP sensor. You may not need the sensor. You may only need to replace the O-Ring.

It will be 5.5mm socket needed, to remove the two screws holding the sensor to the manifold. Be mindful of the plug connector. They get brittle and snap easily.

Once you pull the MAP sensor up, you will see the O-Ring I am talking about.

If you don't have a Service Engine Soon light or misfires, you can rule out most vacuum leaks.

Carbon deposits will cause hotspots in the engine, because the added thousandths of an inch of build-up actually makes compression slightly increase and the deposits absorb heat, instead of dissipating it as the metal components do. Pistons are made from cast aluminum or forged aluminum specifically because of how quickly aluminum dissipates heat energy.

High combustion temperatures result in increased EGR flow, to reduce your NOx emissions, and the ignition system will retard timing due the knock sensor detecting spark knock.

The retarded timing is why the car loses performance, which also increases HS emissions(unburned fuel) and will eventually clog up/burn out the catalytic converter.(Chopping these off is usually "best" way to solve any potential issues that arise from converters, but will cause an SES and is also illegal.)

...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Saturn Night's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Saturn Night reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Saturn Night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2018, 04:47 PM   #10
Cheyne
Senior Member
Cheyne will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,252

2000 SL2
Default Re: Top end clean

Hard starting could be the defective check valve on the fuel pump that plagued the 97. Try turning key to run position and then allowing the fuel pump to finish priming before cranking engine.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Cheyne's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Cheyne reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Cheyne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2018, 12:00 PM   #11
alordofchaos
Super Member
alordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to behold
 
alordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central MI
Posts: 11,415
 

1998 SL2
1997 SL2
Default Re: Top end clean

^ ^ ^ should be the first thought any time anyone mentions a '97 and hard starting

You can test the MAP before replacing if you have an OBDII reader capable of live data. Search for posts by bendorfold for more MAP discussion. A little discussion here
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=176858

You don't have a P0171 code which I would expect for running lean. IAT and ECTS also factor in to fuel delivery. White stuff is deposits rather than corrosion

Pulling the PCM-B fuse in the underhood box will disable fuel injectors and spark when you crank to get extra fluid out of cylinders. You don't want fuel washing down the cylinders when you crank.

Also, cover teh plug holes with something heavy. I did an MMO soak and covered the holes with a paper towel and a tool of some sort. Cranking it blew teh towel aside and I sprayed my engine and garage walls with MMO

...
I'm not worthy to grovel in the shadow of Signmaster's wisdom

11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 124k DD
7/2010 Craigslist white 1997 SC2 project
12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to alordofchaos's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help alordofchaos reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
alordofchaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2018, 12:35 PM   #12
batchley13
New Member
batchley13 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 6

1997 SL1
Default Re: Top end clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheyne View Post
Hard starting could be the defective check valve on the fuel pump that plagued the 97. Try turning key to run position and then allowing the fuel pump to finish priming before cranking engine.
I hope that is all it is. That would be the easiest fix yet. I will try that. Thanks.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to batchley13's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help batchley13 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
batchley13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2018, 02:55 PM   #13
batchley13
New Member
batchley13 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 6

1997 SL1
Default Re: Top end clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheyne View Post
Hard starting could be the defective check valve on the fuel pump that plagued the 97. Try turning key to run position and then allowing the fuel pump to finish priming before cranking engine.

that works like a champ! I can hear it prime and hear when it is done. So that solved that problem. I never would have guessed that. Thanks man

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to batchley13's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help batchley13 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
batchley13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2018, 04:24 PM   #14
Cheyne
Senior Member
Cheyne will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,252

2000 SL2
Default Re: Top end clean

That starting procedure is a feature on the 97.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Cheyne's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Cheyne reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Cheyne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 12:03 PM   #15
Saturn Night
Master Member
Saturn Night is a jewel in the roughSaturn Night is a jewel in the roughSaturn Night is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Leavittsburg, OH
Posts: 2,460

1995 SC2
Default Re: Top end clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheyne View Post
That starting procedure is a feature on the 97.
Now that is pretty funny.....

...
"What does a Saturn owner do, at the gas station?"

"He checks the gas, and fills the oil....."

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Saturn Night's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Saturn Night reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Saturn Night is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 04:05 PM   #16
hholbein
Senior Member
hholbein will become famous soon enoughhholbein will become famous soon enough
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,365
 

1997 SW2
Default Re: Top end clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheyne View Post
Hard starting could be the defective check valve on the fuel pump that plagued the 97. Try turning key to run position and then allowing the fuel pump to finish priming before cranking engine.
There's even a good visual indicator that the 1997 fuel pump is finished re-pressurizing the system -- the fuel gauge starts registering within 125ms of the relay clicking the pump off. That way you can concentrate on your music!

The other benefit with waiting for the fuel system to pressurize is starter life. It's pretty easy to reduce the number of start attempts by 1/2 to 2/3.

Last thought for you with respect to cleaning up your engine and oil consumption. Several of us have had very good luck improving oil consumption with 7.5K to 8K oil change intervals by using full synthetic. I've seen the biggest improvement in running Rotella T6 5W-40 with a bigger filter (M1-209).

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to hholbein's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help hholbein reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
hholbein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 04:07 PM   #17
alordofchaos
Super Member
alordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to beholdalordofchaos is a splendid one to behold
 
alordofchaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central MI
Posts: 11,415
 

1998 SL2
1997 SL2
Default Re: Top end clean

Quote:
Originally Posted by hholbein View Post
I've seen the biggest improvement in running Rotella T6 5W-40 with a bigger filter (M1-209).
In case you haven't seen it, $7 rebates (IIRC) per T6 gallon in the rebate sticky

...
I'm not worthy to grovel in the shadow of Signmaster's wisdom

11/2016 red 2002 5 spd SC2 124k DD
7/2010 Craigslist white 1997 SC2 project
12/2008 eBay silver 1998 SL2 5 spd 102k, now 201k+ miles

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to alordofchaos's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help alordofchaos reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
alordofchaos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2018, 06:07 PM   #18
Eiron
Member
Eiron is on a distinguished road
 
Eiron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 82

1999 SW2
Default Re: Top end clean

I'll jump in with my current engine cleaning method. Immediately after the first filter change my oil consumption dropped by about half to only 1/2 qt for the next 1,500 mi. I'm getting close to the next filter change (~147,300 right now) and I'm almost at a full qt of makeup oil. There's been a very slight increase in consumption recently, which makes me suspect that the oversized L20195 filter might be filled with crud again. My next filter change (~148,000) should be in about four more weeks.

...
He's dead Jim!
You grab his tricorder, I'll get his wallet.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to Eiron's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help Eiron reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
Eiron is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
92 SL1, Clean, $300 goaliemo Classifieds 1 04-15-2015 11:59 AM
Going to clean my TB Scott Peterson S-Series Tech 50 12-12-2008 06:01 PM
Would it be better to just put a new EGR on, or just clean the old EGR? Token S-Series General 12 01-18-2006 12:24 AM
Necessary to clean EGR? denclar S-Series General 18 11-08-2004 11:25 AM
How do I keep this SL clean !! ttreibel S-Series General 15 06-09-2003 10:21 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:27 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.