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Old 10-25-2017, 01:44 PM   #1
Brettmurphy96
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Dizzy Ocasionally won't start

Hey this is my first time posting on this forum so here I begin I'm an apprentice auto tech and own a 2000 saturn l-series with a 2.2 auto

Every now and then after driving for a while I shut off the car and park for and bit then go to restart it with the key still in the ignition and it'll turn over and catch for a split second then sputter out.

I've tested fuel pressure and it's good.
I've tested the ICM and it's reading good
I've tested all the fuses and relays
There is no engine codes

The only way I can get it to start when it does this is to pour a little bit of gas into the throttle body and it'll start up ...... any help would be appreciated

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Old 10-25-2017, 03:03 PM   #2
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2004 L-Series 3.0L Wagon
Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

Welcome to the forum Brett. Glad to have you with us!

Could be a number of items but since when you prime it with raw gas, it will start and run points to a fuel starvation situation.

Possible causes:
Almost clogged fuel filter (When was it last changed?)
Fouled throttle body (Has it been cleaned?)

What fuel pressure reading did you get when you checked the pressure?

Let us know the answers to the above questions and we'll figure it out. Lots of forum members here that know these cars well.

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2004 L Series Wagon 2.2 68K Miles
2004 L-Series Wagon 3.0 48K Miles

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Old 10-25-2017, 05:07 PM   #3
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

Welcome to SaturnFans, Brettmurphy96!

Much of what rb6667 stated in his post was what I'd also been thinking. So......
1) how long has this problem existed?
2) What is the current mileage?
3) What is the maintenance history of this car (if known)?
4) If you don't know when the fuel filter was last replaced then you couldn't be harmed by replacing it regardless. It could correct the problem. If not, it takes that item out of consideration as a contributor to your driveability concern. That, of course, would be "your call to make."

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Old 10-26-2017, 02:22 PM   #4
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

I've owned the car for about 2 months and changed the fuel filter about 2weeks ago and the problem still consists, the car has roughly 285,000kms

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Old 10-26-2017, 02:46 PM   #5
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

OK, that's one down. Now, what PSI reading did you get on the fuel pressure check?

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2004 L-Series Wagon 3.0 48K Miles

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Old 10-27-2017, 11:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

Yes I used a pressure guage it's reading 45psi

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Old 10-27-2017, 12:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

That rules out a weak fuel pump then. That is an excellent pressure reading.

Since the raw gas prime allows the engine to start and run, still points to a fuel delivery problem somewhere.

When you prime the throttle body, do you then start it without reattaching the duct that goes to the air cleaner? Possible air restriction is where I am going here.

Only other thought is to give the throttle body a good cleaning. Then, try some Seafoam down the throttle body while you rev the engine.

Other forum members will have some suggestions I'm sure.

Hang in there. We'll figure it out!

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Old 10-27-2017, 12:48 PM   #8
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

Brettmurphy96, at 285k kms/177k miles, there may be age related issues outside of regular maintenance not being addressed. The fuel pump is old and a pressure check is always a good way to monitor possible pump failure at any time with a possibility of decreasing pressures tricky to see at first glance. As you begin your career in automotive technology, you'll learn to ask many questions as you become aware of many things needed to make an engine run. You'll see examples here from some of us asking you questions because no one is standing next to you or your car and rely you as the sole source of information to paint a picture of your view of this car and its problems. One of the key phrases to learn; an internal combustion engine requires three things - air, fuel and spark. All seem to be present when starting up but something fails intermittently. Intermittent problems can be either extremely difficult to diagnose or obvious.

Presuming air isn't restricted from a clogged air filter and fuel injectors are working (they cannot work intermittently), spark may be an issue. The ecotec engines using modular ignition systems with the ignition control module plugged into the coil pack sitting directly over the engine has its quirks. The coil pack seems to be reliable but the ignition control module does have a history of failures, possibly from engine heating and cooling cycles. You'll find many threads about ignition control module failures. Few of any are intermittent. The best you can do for diagnosing possible icm issues is to disconnect wiring, remove it from the coil pack and check for terminal corrosion, clean up corrosion and use a little dielectric grease and reinstall it back onto the coil pack. Testing ICMs on a bench doesn't take into account the thousands of heating/cooling cycles in an engine environment - real world testing. If you tested your icm by heating it up to engine temperatures, measuring it then freezing it in an ice box measuring it again for two temperature extremes, you may appreciate engineering exercises accounting for many variables.

Were spark plugs ever replaced every 100k miles? Compression test done to assess engine mechanical health?

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Old 10-27-2017, 04:44 PM   #9
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

The spark plugs were replaced with NGK plugs before I obtained the car and when this problem occurs I take off the breather for the throttle body and pour a tiny bit of gas into the TB and then I put the breather back on and go inside and crank it and it'll only start if I give it fuel and it's boggy for a few seconds then clears up.... I think I'm going to test my crank sensor for resistance tomorrow

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Old 10-27-2017, 07:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

There's nothing wrong with the engine crank sensor. Either the engine runs or doesn't when troubleshooting a faulty crank sensor. The worst case scenario is an intermittent crank sensor and your descriptions doesn't fit an intermittent one. Intermittent crank sensor failures are usually associated with engine heat killing one, letting the engine cool down and restarting/driving until engine heat kills it again. This can be repeated as many times until it's frustrating and posted on forums. This forum has many examples from members describing the same issues with an intermittent one. Personally I do not think this is a crank sensor issue and it's always your choice to chase every suspicious part.

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Old 10-27-2017, 07:45 PM   #11
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

So I understand you have a hot restart problem when the key has been left in the ignition. Does the car work ok if you remove the key each time? There is no chip in the key however the ignition switch my think the car is being stolen since the key stayed in the switch. Is the key worn? I have gone to the GM dealer and had new keys cut by VIN for the last 4 GM cars I have had.

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Old 10-28-2017, 05:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

The secuirity light doesn't stay on or has never flashed and yes it only happens once it warmed up and I shut it off and try to restart it

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Old 10-28-2017, 08:41 AM   #13
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

Also ruled out that it's not the crank sensor because I took out the old one and measured for resistance and was reading 0.76 ohms on the 20k scale and I have a new one beside me reading 0.72ohms so I'm going to try to clean the throttle body as it looks dirty

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Old 10-28-2017, 10:43 AM   #14
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brettmurphy96 View Post
I'm going to try to clean the throttle body as it looks dirty
^^^ Good. Make sure you clean BOTH sides of the butterfly. Then try some Seafoam while you rev the engine. Just a little bit at a time while you rev the engine. Lots of smoke will result.

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Old 10-28-2017, 10:23 PM   #15
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

I would try removing the key each time or try a second key. There are several different pass key modes. I do have a factory service manual set for a 2002. I can research this if needed. Happy to help you.

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Old 10-30-2017, 09:18 AM   #16
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

I didn't have a chance to clean the throttle body yet but I will keep updated and the secuirity light never stays on or flashes

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Old 11-11-2017, 07:50 AM   #17
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Default 2002 L300 - Crank position sensor? Intermittent stalling

This is my first reply/comment on this website and I hope I'm not violating any protocol by jumping in on Brettmurphy96's post but I'm having very similar issues with my 2002 L300. What caught my attention was fdryer's comment about the the crank position sensor not being the cause of the intermittent stalling or failure to start.
I'm the original owner and my 2002 L300 stalled for the first time ever just last week. I tried several times to start it for over 20 minutes almost giving up. I gave it one last try and voila! It started right up.
I pulled the following codes out of my engine: P1780 (PNP...), P0727 (Engine Speed circuit-no signal), P0621 (Generator L terminal circuit...).
I replaced the Crank position sensor, drove it again today and after 20 minutes it just shut down. I waited about 45 minutes and finally it started right up. This seems to be the pattern now: starts right up and runs great for approx 20 minutes and then shuts down and won't start for approx 45 minutes. I guess the crank position sensor was not the problem. Any ideas out there? By the way, I've been reading advice given on this and other forums for several months and this forum blows away the other sites. You guys seem happy to share your knowledge with each other in a genuine way that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. Thanks!

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Old 11-11-2017, 02:11 PM   #18
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

Yeah, warm and fuzzy can be misinterpreted may ways but you verified a much about this place sharing info. Perhaps it's a true 'Saturn' thing beyond the showroom atmosphere that's carried on into these forums. I visited other sites and came away with similar impressions - not sharing and more stand offish. One particular site was and maybe still downright antagonistic to almost anyone 'not speaking their language', unwilling to welcome members and conducting themselves as almighty know-it-alls. Edison wasn't smart as a child until he toiled away in a patent office, developing the now historical E=mc2 so I doubt car genius' are born smart and each person has to learn to become smart before assuming smart ass attitude. Here, we share knowledge, not egos.

Unfortunately, you're descriptions appears to mimic a faulty crank sensor so there must be more to your issues than revealed. With several error codes pointing in several directions, there may me more than one problem here. The difficulty is picking one over the other and eliminating each one. To assess this better, more info is needed; maintenance history, parts replaced, any modifications with aftermarket electronics, mileage, etc. More car history can paint a picture of what you see and know since no one is standing next to you and the car. Imagination can go a long way for some of us armchair quarterbacks.

In addition to questions asked, what's fuel pressure?

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Old 11-11-2017, 09:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

Thanks for the reply fdryer, I don't have a fuel pressure gauge so that may be my next investment. What should it read once I get it? I may be able to borrow one tomorrow.
As far as car history goes, I replaced the thermostat a few years back; put in a new alternator 3 years ago. Most importantly, I had to replace the BCM about five years ago. Haven't had any other problems until this latest stalling problem. The BCM was done at an authorized shop, I did the rest myself.
After my most recent stall I got the following codes from my reader:
P1780 PNP (park neutral position) Switch
P0727 Engine speed circuit no signal
P0335 Crank position sensor circuit
P0621 Generator L - Terminal circuit
Where do I start?!
Thanks again...

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Old 11-12-2017, 01:13 AM   #20
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Default Re: Ocasionally won't start

Expect between 39-49 psi fuel pressure as soon as ignition is turned on. Regulator and check valve prevents immediate pressure bleed down when the two second pump priming sequence halts (without proceeding to startup). You may have to leave the pressure gauge in place to monitor for any pressure drops at any time or at least have it ready to connect at the next failure to startup. Eliminating fuel pressure as a problem requires actual monitoring by ensuring pressures are there when the engine starts and runs and remains at pressure if the engine dies off.

Two error codes that rarely show up are the crank sensor errors. An intermittent crank sensor can randomly fail whenever it feels like. Most failures are engine heat related from thousands of cold/heat cycles. Its located next to the oil filter canister and held in with one Torx bolt. A little spendy but absolutely necessary as it supplies the precise timing/clock signals that allows the ecm to operate. Without it providing a steady pulse train of timing signals when the engine rotates, the ecm cannot run the EFI system. Sometimes members overlook fitting them into their holes - the O-ring simply interferes with seating it in place as it serves to keep engine oil from leaking out. If not fully seated, a new sensor may act faulty when all that's necessary is to fully seat it. Wiring must be intact unless loose or corroded connections are found.

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