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Old 10-09-2017, 12:08 PM   #41
Melissa_M
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Default Re: no start urgent

Got my starter delivered, 17667N/SP0002. Haven't crawled under yet to make sure they look the same.

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Old 10-09-2017, 12:37 PM   #42
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Default Re: no start urgent

So far you've gone through the same type of troubleshooting that I went through when my starter was beginning to go a few years ago. My mom saw me struggling for 10 minutes with the car on ramps and convinced me to just take it to a mechanic and have them do it since I was not hurting for money. No issues after starter install.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

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Old 10-09-2017, 12:39 PM   #43
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Default Re: no start urgent

Is that a starter from dbelectrical? It may not look the same, probably will be smaller, and that makes getting that top screw in easier. don't fret about getting a manifold stud for that spot, it isn't all that hard to get the top screw in.

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Old 10-09-2017, 01:42 PM   #44
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Default Re: no start urgent

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
don't fret about getting a manifold stud for that spot, it isn't all that hard to get the top screw in.
Agreed. The stud is great if you have the engine out anyway. If you are putting in a DB Electrical starter, it's going to be (presumably) a long time before you need to worry about replacing the starter again.

I was having a devil of a time with the top bolt falling out of the starter hole as I was trying to angle the whole thing up into its spot. I think I ended up using one hand to hold up the starter.

The other, I had a piece of duct tape loosely holding the top bolt in the socket (which was on an extension). With the tape holding the bolt on, I could get it into the starter top hole and turn it to get it started into its spot.

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Old 10-09-2017, 03:51 PM   #45
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Default Re: no start urgent

Quote:
I was having a devil of a time with the top bolt falling out of the starter hole as I was trying to angle the whole thing up into its spot. I think I ended up using one hand to hold up the starter.
When taking it out, remove the top bolt first and the bottom bolt holds the starter on. Then it is easy to hold the starter with one hand while removing the bottom bolt. When replacing, hold the starter with one hand and thread in the bottom bolt. It will hold the starter while you thread in the top bolt.

Using this sequence makes it easy. First time I went after the bottom bolt first, as I could see it.

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Old 10-09-2017, 04:17 PM   #46
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Default Re: no start urgent

^^+1 bottom bolt first...

When replacing starter initially only tighten bottom bolt a light finger tight. If you first clean off the block where the starter mounts and clean out the 2 bolt holes and the bolts this all goes back together easily.

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Old 10-09-2017, 06:49 PM   #47
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Default Re: no start urgent

Got the old starter out (really hard)
Got the new starter in (also hard).
Reconnected purple wire. Reconnected battery cable and fusible link. (I tightened these by hand and then gently tried to move the wires. They were solid, no wiggle)
Reconnected battery neg cable. disabled alarm when it went off, due to battery disconnect
Turned key
instrument panel lit and there was a very brief noise (nowhere near like it might actually start)
Lost all the lights on instrument panel, power locks
no start

whatthe**** did I do wrong?
are my connectors perhaps touching each other on the starter? or do the battery cable and fusible link need to go on in a specific order? Cause I have just shorted something, right?


The only test I did (for safety reasons) was :
"clip one meter lead onto the starter housing and clip the other to the large starter terminal that has the battery cable on it. " I don't really understand my dvm, a lot of times the numbers just bounce around, but one of those numbers was 12.

I'm so devastated, please tell me this is something simple and stupid and obvious.

Since I sill have it up on ramps I could try the other tests that billr so kindly explained. But, I really don't want a person (me!) under the car while it's cranked. I have to find out how to make lead extensions
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20171009_184519.jpg (99.0 KB, 21 views)

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Last edited by Melissa_M; 10-09-2017 at 06:56 PM..

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Old 10-09-2017, 07:14 PM   #48
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Default Re: no start urgent

I wasn't sure how to reconnect the wires,actually.
I put on washer, battery cable, fusible link, split washer, nut.
I put the split washer on after PPL, then nut. There was no additional washer.

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Old 10-09-2017, 07:52 PM   #49
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Default Re: no start urgent

Why is the underside of your engine so very clean???

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Old 10-09-2017, 09:06 PM   #50
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Default Re: no start urgent

Quote:
Originally Posted by toggenburg View Post
Why is the underside of your engine so very clean???
I like it that way.

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Old 10-09-2017, 10:43 PM   #51
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Default Re: no start urgent

Well, I confess, I was wondering if that was a "file photo", not your actual engine. The wire/cable connections in the photo look fine. It's now time for meter extensions, I guess?

Oops, I just realized you already check voltage at the big term, the one with the battery cable and fusible link. That one should be rock-steady. Can you post a video of it "bouncing around"?

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Old 10-09-2017, 10:53 PM   #52
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Default Re: no start urgent

Wiring to the starter appears correct. Two cables, battery and fusible link wire to the large starter terminal, single small gauge purple wire on the small terminal.

1-Did you over tighten the battery/fusible link wire nut? If you over tighten this nut and spin the copper stud, it may break the wire inside the solenoid rendering the starter inoperative.

Lost all instrument panel lights after turning on ignition? In normal startup, all i/p lights turn on for a few seconds then turn off, leaving brake, seat belt, oil and battery lights on

2-Did any of these lights remain on or went off with the rest?

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Old 10-09-2017, 11:10 PM   #53
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Default Re: no start urgent

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
Well, I confess, I was wondering if that was a "file photo", not your actual engine. The wire/cable connections in the photo look fine. It's now time for meter extensions, I guess?

Oops, I just realized you already check voltage at the big term, the one with the battery cable and fusible link. That one should be rock-steady. Can you post a video of it "bouncing around"?
I don't have supplies to make extensions, so I will have to buy some.
My DVM has pointy probes. Can I get wire with alligator clips at both ends ? Clip one to my probe end, the other to the test subject?

I could make a video of the DVM readout, but can we post them here? I've used this dvm on other cars, and appliances, and the seemingly random bounce seems to be normal.

I highly doubt I overtightened the nut to break the stud.
All of the panel lights went off. I turned the key again and got no panel lights (plus no power doorlock)


When I was putting it together, I did PPL first, then the battery/fusible link. I tried to put the socket back on the PPL to check it, and found the batt/fusible link was in the way of the socket. However, I crawled back under and it really doesn't look like they actually touch.

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Last edited by Melissa_M; 10-09-2017 at 11:18 PM..

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Old 10-10-2017, 01:09 AM   #54
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Default Re: no start urgent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melissa_M View Post
......All of the panel lights went off. I turned the key again and got no panel lights (plus no power doorlock)...... .
No panel lights means zero power from the battery, loose main battery connections, blown fuses. Is the battery dead? Are the battery connections secured or loose?

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Old 10-10-2017, 05:59 AM   #55
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Default Re: no start urgent

How important is it to get batt cable (@batt )tight? I did it finger tight, at least, and pretty sure a few turns with the wrench. I also imagine I gave it a quick wiggle check by hand.
Will be checking fuses next.
Battery condition: it was 12.4v when all this started. I put it on the charger at slow charge rate, but pulled it off before it said it was complete. Measured 12.9V.
Next day it was down to 12.7v and I left it on the chager all day before doing the starter. Still never showed complete on the charger, and I measured 12.7V.

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Old 10-10-2017, 07:06 AM   #56
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Default Re: no start urgent

fuses:
checked the 2 IGN fuses, chime in kickpanel. good.
could not get the 30amp IGN fuses out of UHJB , but they did look good.
We had pulled those on Friday and farily certain they went back in the same orientation (i.e not flipped). That doesn't matter, does it?
What other fuses should I look at?

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Old 10-10-2017, 07:14 AM   #57
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Default Re: no start urgent

It is important that your battery connection is tight. Starter pulls a lot of current. Try that first.

I agree the wiring looks right. It would be worth checking your fuses under the hood, though I don't think you would have blown the 30A fuse with the sparking you did. That should have been through the main power wire, which is not fused.

Your voltages all seem fine.

If you pop off the purple wire to check it, just tape the point probe to the ring lug. Alligator clips are good too if you have them. Put your meter on the cowl where you can see it and ground the other lug somehow. Then you can look for 12V when you crank.

If you have no purple 12V, there are 3 things that can interrupt this: clutch switch, starter relay, and ignition switch.

Good luck!

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Old 10-10-2017, 08:42 AM   #58
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Default Re: no start urgent

So that previous battery connection was good enough to make the panel light, but when I engaged the starter , it was not enough to energize it. I would have expected to still get panel lights after that, tho. If it was good enough to light the panel once, why not twice? Did it just use up all the juice that could be drawn thru the connection?

sososo glad you guys told me to check the cable.
Put the neg batt cable on again today (i left it off overnite). Rechecked the pos cable - no wiggle, but I got 2 more turns with my 1/4"wratchet. Then a rough start (why?). Then died.
Then started.
And again!

Now, back to the connections on the starter. Obviously I have an under-torque tendency (for a reason). I tightened the nuts so that there was no wiggle on the wires. I guess I will have to monitor those connections, which brings me no joy as it is so hard to get in there. What about threadlocker?

Still sounds tricky to test the purple wire, but I may try it while I have the car on ramps. I can ground one probe to anything metal on the car, right? Again, no alligator clips, so I would have to tape it to connect. I guess I'll have to wait, though, as light rain is not helpful here.

As always, my deep gratitude for all the tips, tricks and patient advice.

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Old 10-10-2017, 08:53 AM   #59
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Default Re: no start urgent

There should be lock washers on the starter cable posts, they look like a thick standard washer with a cut on one side and then reformed to not sit flat. This tension when installed with a nut is enough to keep the nut from backing off, unless the metal has fatigued and effectively failed.

With the starter posts and the alternator posts you/we should be using a wrench on the nut made into the post to hold it in place for both install and removal, then we can crank on it as tight as we want without risking breaking the somewhat fragile electrical connection.

The dash lights don't require much power so a bad connection will turn those on just fine but when you connect a high load like the starter it draws more power than the connection can support and everything turns off.

With the purple wire off the starter you can strip more than the normal mount off a wire and wrap it around the ring, doesn't need to be tight as you just want to measure voltage not run anything.

I think most side terminal batteries have a 10-12ft/lb torque rating for the posts...this requires a bit of work with a 1/4" drive ratchet and virtually none with a 3/8" drive. I usually just use a 6pt wrench until the terminal rounds off too much then I use vice grips.

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Old 10-10-2017, 09:34 AM   #60
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Default Re: no start urgent

If your starter is cranking, that is your purple wire check. No need to mess with the meter!

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