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Old 08-16-2013, 03:09 PM   #1
bugsyga
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Default 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

Here we go.

2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Manual 5 Spd. 100,000 miles.

Never had any problems until started this limp mode randomly for about a month. Now it will only start in Reduced Power Mode immediately. I replaced the pedal sensor, throttle body, and ecm. I have tested all wiring and everything seems to be correct that I can test, ie 5v to each sensor. I live like 30 miles from the closest place to get scanned and it will only let me get up to like 5-10mph, so as last resort I am here.

1. Could it be Crankshaft position sensor?

2. Could it be MAF sensor?

3. Could i have anything to do with coil/plugs?

4. Could it be the engine coolant temperature sensor?

5. What else could it possibly be?

A little more info:
When started, very rough idle at about 800 rpms, and can only rev to about 3000 and sounds like it smooths out a little.

Thanks for any and all help.

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Old 08-16-2013, 03:57 PM   #2
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsyga View Post
Here we go.

2005 Saturn Vue 2.2L Manual 5 Spd. 100,000 miles.

Never had any problems until started this limp mode randomly for about a month. Now it will only start in Reduced Power Mode immediately. I replaced the pedal sensor, throttle body, and ecm. I have tested all wiring and everything seems to be correct that I can test, ie 5v to each sensor. I live like 30 miles from the closest place to get scanned and it will only let me get up to like 5-10mph, so as last resort I am here.

1. Could it be Crankshaft position sensor?

2. Could it be MAF sensor?

3. Could i have anything to do with coil/plugs?

4. Could it be the engine coolant temperature sensor?

5. What else could it possibly be?

A little more info:
When started, very rough idle at about 800 rpms, and can only rev to about 3000 and sounds like it smooths out a little.

Thanks for any and all help.
It appears you've eliminated about everything in Throttle Actuator Control (TAC) system (also known as Electronic Throttle Control) but I'm not sure how much wiring you've checked.

Common fail points - other than ECM - are harness end of throttle body connector and C200 which is behind kick panel next to drivers left foot.

Access C200 by removing the panel (part of drivers door carpet retainer) and disconnect the connector (pull handle) to thoroughly check pin and socket contacts for corrosion or heat damage.

The HVAC blower motor pulls up to 40 amps through one of those contacts and it could have distorted TAC wiring.

My apologies if you've already checked the connectors and I'll look through the manual to see other possible causes.

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Old 08-16-2013, 07:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

I have checked the harness behind the kick panel and it seems ok. I disconnected it and all looked dry and pretty clean. Is there something to look for that might stand out? Also what about the other sensors? Are they even a possible tie to this problem? Thanks

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Old 08-16-2013, 08:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsyga View Post
I have checked the harness behind the kick panel and it seems ok. I disconnected it and all looked dry and pretty clean. Is there something to look for that might stand out? Also what about the other sensors? Are they even a possible tie to this problem? Thanks
You know as well as I one key to knowing where to start is to read the code - they're not always 100% definitive but beat throwing lots of parts at the little guy. I also understand the problem regarding how to get to nearest code reader. (With your luck its probably at an AutoZone and they typically won't read Vue codes ).

One example is diagnostic code P0068 - if set indicates more air than expected is entering intake system. This code will cause CHECK ENGINE LIGHT and also REDUCED POWER. Possible causes are bad IAT or MAP plus a few simple items - here's cut an paste from service manual:

Inspect for the following conditions:

Vacuum hoses for splits, kinks, and proper connections as shown on Vehicle Emission Control Information label--Inspect thoroughly for any type of leak or restriction.

Air leaks at throttle body mounting area and intake manifold sealing surfaces.

The complete description is too large to post but I can email this one and several others if you PM an email address.

I keep thinking about you replacing TB, APP and ECM - were these new parts or perhaps just known good items?

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Old 08-16-2013, 10:10 PM   #5
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

Quote:
Originally Posted by far2grumpy View Post
You know as well as I one key to knowing where to start is to read the code - they're not always 100% definitive but beat throwing lots of parts at the little guy. I also understand the problem regarding how to get to nearest code reader. (With your luck its probably at an AutoZone and they typically won't read Vue codes ).

One example is diagnostic code P0068 - if set indicates more air than expected is entering intake system. This code will cause CHECK ENGINE LIGHT and also REDUCED POWER. Possible causes are bad IAT or MAP plus a few simple items - here's cut an paste from service manual:

Inspect for the following conditions:

Vacuum hoses for splits, kinks, and proper connections as shown on Vehicle Emission Control Information label--Inspect thoroughly for any type of leak or restriction.

Air leaks at throttle body mounting area and intake manifold sealing surfaces.

The complete description is too large to post but I can email this one and several others if you PM an email address.

I keep thinking about you replacing TB, APP and ECM - were these new parts or perhaps just known good items?
A couple other thoughts - can you monitor the throttle blade while someone presses and releases the gas pedal? To monitor for semi-smooth movement of the blade from closed to open?

You could also force the system to learn a new key-on throttle setting - turn key to ON for about a minute - then OFF - then back on for a start cycle.

There are around 12 codes that'll set both CEL and reduced power - I recall one of them applies if idle is 200 RPM higher than expected.

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Old 08-17-2013, 01:10 AM   #6
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

It throws a code when it goes into reduced power mode. Not readying the code you'd just be waffling around.

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Old 08-18-2013, 02:25 PM   #7
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

so what are the 12 reasons that can cause this. Just to clarify, it starts in reduced power mode from the get go.

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Old 08-18-2013, 03:04 PM   #8
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

oh yeah another symptom is that after replacing the parts, throttle relearn does not work, so it has to be something that the ecm checks at the first sign of ignition.

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Old 08-18-2013, 10:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

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Originally Posted by bugsyga View Post
oh yeah another symptom is that after replacing the parts, throttle relearn does not work, so it has to be something that the ecm checks at the first sign of ignition.
According to service manual .... at key up - ECM will move throttle blade to closed position and then try to establish learned idle position - if one is stored.

Otherwise the ECM will decide there's a system failure and move the throttle blade to spring loaded default position. This basically permits sufficient air past the blade while the ECM varies engine speed using default programs to run fuel injectors and ignition spark.

I've attached a thumbnail - basically depicts all device using 5 Volt reference but also has a good diagram of the TAC system.

The other items that can cause TAC failure are various ECM, throttle body, accelerator pedal and wiring problems.

I offered to email these when I sent P0068 but never heard back from you. Actually they wouldn't be very useful since you can't pull up failure codes.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 05 Vue - 2.2 TAC Wiring.jpg (152.4 KB, 25 views)

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Old 08-19-2013, 02:16 PM   #10
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

okay been working on all these possibilities today. Now I think that I might check wiring between TB and ECM. I have wiring diagram for TB but not the ecm. Does anyone have a wiring diagram for 2005 saturn vue. Thanks

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Old 08-19-2013, 02:59 PM   #11
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsyga View Post
okay been working on all these possibilities today. Now I think that I might check wiring between TB and ECM. I have wiring diagram for TB but not the ecm. Does anyone have a wiring diagram for 2005 saturn vue. Thanks
See the thumbnail in previous post (# 9). Has ECM, TAC Module (TB) and APP pin-outs and relationship to each other.

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Old 08-19-2013, 06:09 PM   #12
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

okay, here is todays update. I check as much wiring as i could and all seems fine.

The 2 main symptoms that stand out to me are that it will not do a throttle relearn no matter how many times I try. I have removed battery cable also and tried. FYI...after new ecu I did passlock relearn and that did work, but from what I understand, that has more to do with bcm, so that seems to be ok.

The other symptom that seems odd is that if I start it, in limp mode, it rough idles, but when I push the accelerator, the rpms go to 3000, but the throttle plate is not moving when I push the gas. However when I remove the pcv valve, it will go up to 3500 rpm, probably not even relevant.

Come on peeps, someone has had this problem and knows the solution. What am I missing.. I think I am about to offer a nice reward for winning solution so that maybe more ideas will come out.

I have a crankshaft position sensor and a engine coolant temp sensor to install yet, so tomorrow that will be the task, and that will only leave the map sensor and some fuel tank sensor left in the whole 'pre start check'.

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Old 08-19-2013, 10:20 PM   #13
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsyga View Post
okay, here is todays update. I check as much wiring as i could and all seems fine.

The 2 main symptoms that stand out to me are that it will not do a throttle relearn no matter how many times I try. I have removed battery cable also and tried. FYI...after new ecu I did passlock relearn and that did work, but from what I understand, that has more to do with bcm, so that seems to be ok.

The other symptom that seems odd is that if I start it, in limp mode, it rough idles, but when I push the accelerator, the rpms go to 3000, but the throttle plate is not moving when I push the gas. However when I remove the pcv valve, it will go up to 3500 rpm, probably not even relevant.

Come on peeps, someone has had this problem and knows the solution. What am I missing.. I think I am about to offer a nice reward for winning solution so that maybe more ideas will come out.

I have a crankshaft position sensor and a engine coolant temp sensor to install yet, so tomorrow that will be the task, and that will only leave the map sensor and some fuel tank sensor left in the whole 'pre start check'.
I can't believe you're spending money on so many odd-ball parts.

The probable cause is hiding behind the CEL and is stored in one of the modules just waiting on you to plug in a code reader.

C'mon man ... beg, buy, borrow or steal a code reader!!!

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Old 08-19-2013, 11:08 PM   #14
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

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Originally Posted by bugsyga View Post
...........The other symptom that seems odd is that if I start it, in limp mode, it rough idles, but when I push the accelerator, the rpms go to 3000, but the throttle plate is not moving when I push the gas.............
There's your one and only hint - throttle isn't commanded to follow pedal movement.

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Old 08-20-2013, 09:17 AM   #15
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

so what does that mean.

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Old 08-20-2013, 10:14 AM   #16
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

To fully understand EFI systems requires more than casual knowledge of simply replacing parts to a difficult problem. As you found out, there are procedures required to 'marry' ecm's/bcm's/tcm's for the factory security system to operate otherwise replacement doesn't work. The electric throttle requires calibration using the built-in calibration program anyone can do by simply leaving the ign ON for more than 30 seconds. The fact that this procedure either didn't work at all or something caused it to fail to proceed is where you'll need to troubleshoot further. EFI systems can be separated into two areas; easy problems on the surface and difficult problems hidden under the surface. Yours is more hidden as replacing all three components (to reduced power mode) didn't fix it. Starting from the beginning may help with replacing all original parts back, carefully, and performing a relearn and calibration otherwise you may be looking at a wiring or connection issue. Being knee deep into this problem with several parts replaced with no improvement means to me something was missed before parts were replaced. Parts not replaced; wiring and connectors. These may need to be examined/inspected.

When throttle calibration failed indicates communication between the ecm and throttle didn't take place - neither one nor the other talked to each other and this is already at least one issue to address. A calibration routine simply allows an automated procedure to run - in this case, leaving ignition ON (no pedal) beyond 30 seconds to initiate the auto calibrate process. The wiring between ecm and throttle wasn't replaced but throttle and ecm were. Whether a wiring or connection issue is the problem remains to be seen/troubleshot.

This problem is not the average one that comes across Saturnfans and you'll need service manual documents to appreciate the background information (complexity) about EFI systems. f2g and I, as well as others have access to service manuals. Either pm me or him with information requests for a specific model/problem and include an email address. We can send you everything but the kitchen sink..........

In essence, throttle is supposed to follow pedal movement whether its cable operated or drive-by-wire electronics. Yours doesn't.

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Old 08-20-2013, 10:14 AM   #17
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

I think what he means is you're chasing your tail around this issue. The vehicle has given you a "clue" as you stated with not having a throttle blade response. But somehow until you beg, borrow or steal a code reader all you're going to do is shotgun it and waste good time and $$$$$

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Old 08-22-2013, 12:57 PM   #18
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

after going over everything again , i realize that the ecm that I put in was from another o5 vue but it was an automatic. Would this cause a problem?

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Old 08-22-2013, 03:09 PM   #19
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

In my opinion, I don't think it matters but I can be wrong. This makes it more troublesome for troubleshooting, possibly adding another problem to what you have. Starting all over and putting original parts back may bring things back to where you started. I realize the frustration you may have but if this were my headache I'd carefully assess and acquire as much info before throwing parts at the car. I can say that if it wasn't for being a member here, I think I would have had a more difficult time troubleshooting what turned out to be an intermittent crank sensor fault without reading the many examples from members here.

Is there any way for you to buy a reader? This can help. Members can suggest the best reader for you.

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Old 08-24-2013, 09:38 AM   #20
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Default Re: 05 Vue Stuck in Reduced Power Mode

okay, so I broke down and bought a scanner. Here is the info.

P2176 - minimum throttle not learned. (Duh, already knew that)

Thats it. I cleared the code and rescanned.....

No codes found.

Here is the live data scan

MIL status - on
abslt tps % - 38.8
engine speed - 1100
calc load % - 65
map ("HG) - 21
coolant - 185
iat - 97
ign adv - (-15.0)
st ftrm1 % - 0
st ftrm2 % - 0
fuel sys1 - open1
fuel sys2 - n/a

I really am at a loss here.

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