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Old 09-27-2017, 10:35 AM   #41
gm7
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Fair enough John. We can disagree about oil consumption being a sweeping problem. As mentioned, I have been on this forum a long time and oil consumption isn't discussed. Not to say that some like yourself don't have excessive oil consumption. Satelite440 explained by GM shifted nominal tolerances in the engine which favor performance over oil conservatism. I have been around engines my whole long life and have owned cars that use some oil and others that are stingy with oil...over many brands including BMW's. Build tolerances tend to be a bit of a lottery as it turns out and why some motors are freakishly fast. In fact, in spite of my Vue Redline not using oil, the motor in my car seems unusually frisky. I can't explain why. If feels more like the HP of the direct injected 3.6L. A very strong motor...in fact one of the best running cars I have owned and I have owned quite an array. Btw, I spin my motor up and even use the manual shift mode. My background is owning performance cars...some I have modified pretty heavily.

To answer your questions and satelite440 can be the definitive voice and the man I go to for technical nuance, for both the timing chain and waveplate, the procedure set by GM is to drop the cradle out of the car. Both jobs can however be performed with the engine in the car...or the cradle in the case of the waveplate dropped slightly...but MUCH easier to drop the cradle out.

As to re-ringing the motor if you are even considering this, I would not attempt in the car...and I have pulled pistons with engines in the car in the past. The rear bank is very hard to access....and in fact, suggested to change the rear spark plugs if doing the timing chains because such a PITA with the motor all together. Cylinder head work...like with stripped Northstar cylinder head bolts etc, across platform, the procedure is drop the cradle.

Truthfully, dropping the cradle is a great design. Problem is, for the average home mechanic, we don't have a $20K frame lift like a pro garage has.

Be sure to keep us posted with what you decide for rebuilding your engine. Since you need several items, I would try to cut a deal with the dealership...ask them if they wouldn't book hours for dropping the cradle for all related jobs. See what number they come up with. I believe the hours for dropping the cradle and doing the timing chain is 16 hours and $2500. Not sure if GM would pre-emptively replace the clutch packs without failure...if they would do this. Some have done this at home however.

Check out youtube for videos related to timing chains and the wave plate issue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scZMjJ2jmUI&t=11s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HfBbNqJc8k

this is excellent...not for the faint of heart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvXxaFzvYnE

Last edited by gm7; 09-27-2017 at 10:47 AM..

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Old 09-27-2017, 11:10 AM   #42
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Gm7,
I would call your engine the rarity, and you lucky. Just do a Google search about GM 3.6 oil consumption.,. It goes on for days.
And my trans is starting to act up a little, but not enough YET to get the free repair/rebuild. If it goes before November 20th, I get the trans done for free. And if I get that, and they drop the cradle, I will spend the money to have new timing chain, tensioners and guides put in, along with new sprockets and solenoids probably. As, like you say, they shouldn't bill me for the cradle drop as that is covered by the trans work.
I have actually come up with an inexpensive design for a frame lift that should give me about 28" of lift... I just have not built it yet as I have no garage to put it in. I wonder if that is enough to do the job????
And I do enjoy the manual shift mode on my car.. It is a lot of fun.

...
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Old 09-27-2017, 11:43 AM   #43
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

guys..i will elaborate more on both your posts tonight when I get home,im at work now and was just browsing at work..gm7's is not a hen's teeth moter nor are the long list of others who did/do have a consumption issue..and go into more depth later..forinstance if im only doing a trans issue I hang the moter and pull the subframe and trans only cuz it's faster..more later

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Old 09-27-2017, 01:18 PM   #44
gm7
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_varon View Post
Gm7,
I would call your engine the rarity, and you lucky. Just do a Google search about GM 3.6 oil consumption.,. It goes on for days.
And my trans is starting to act up a little, but not enough YET to get the free repair/rebuild. If it goes before November 20th, I get the trans done for free. And if I get that, and they drop the cradle, I will spend the money to have new timing chain, tensioners and guides put in, along with new sprockets and solenoids probably. As, like you say, they shouldn't bill me for the cradle drop as that is covered by the trans work.
I have actually come up with an inexpensive design for a frame lift that should give me about 28" of lift... I just have not built it yet as I have no garage to put it in. I wonder if that is enough to do the job????
And I do enjoy the manual shift mode on my car.. It is a lot of fun.
If your trans is starting to act up John, maybe satelite440 can suggest how you accelerate its demise so you get a new one under warranty. I am not fan of cheating the system but November isn't that far off and GM stonewalled one owner on this forum recently who was just 5 days out of warranty and he ended up dumping the car for another brand. One thing comes to mind is draining some oil out of the trans and then running the crap out of it and then adding oil back after it fails. The book on the 6T70 trans is...it is heat sensitive and why I personally believe a low oil level in some instances may even contribute to wave plate failure as the temper of plate which was missed in production of the wave plate...is likely affected by the temp the trans runs at over time hastening its demise. Oil level isn't easy to check on these transmissions...or rather takes careful attention and likely some lose their oil level over time and/or were never filled adequately from the factory. Draining oil and then adding it back to the trans after failure isn't perhaps the most ethical thing to do but either is this issue we have all had to live with based upon a timeline of imminent death...first without a warranty and then with a warranty that will expire. Mine will expire near the end of next year for example and so far my 6T70 continues to shift flawlessly.

I would like to see your concept of a frame lift. I have had an offline conversation with satelite440 where he suggested the body of the car be lifted 24" off the ground and then the cradle can be dropped down onto shipping pallets for adequate clearance to the clutch pack on the driver side of the trans. What is important I believe unlike the 2nd video I attached earlier, is the car should be absolutely level when raising it for safety and having the cradle draw back straight to the car upon reassembly.

I look forward to satlite440's further comments on hanging the motor and dropping the cradle. He knows more about these issues than anybody...perhaps in the US and we are very lucky to have his expertise here.

Last edited by gm7; 09-27-2017 at 01:26 PM..

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Old 09-27-2017, 01:44 PM   #45
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Quote:
Originally Posted by gm7 View Post
One thing comes to mind is draining some oil out of the trans and then running the crap out of it and then adding oil back after it fails.
I'd be careful with that seeing there may be event recorders in the car that can show when the car was over-revved, over heated, run low on oil etc. They may deny the claim and you would have damaged a transmission that could have gone another 100,000 miles. No saying it wouldn't work, as I got a $20,000 engine replacement on another make when the previous owner ran it out of oil, but it's risky.

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Old 09-27-2017, 01:54 PM   #46
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Quote:
Originally Posted by atikovi View Post
I'd be careful with that seeing there may be event recorders in the car that can show when the car was over-revved, over heated, run low on oil etc. They may deny the claim and you would have damaged a transmission that could have gone another 100,000 miles. No saying it wouldn't work, as I got a $20,000 engine replacement on another make when the previous owner ran it out of oil, but it's risky.
Doubt it. What event recorders on a 2008 trans? When the waveplate lets go, all bets are off. The trans way over revs relative to what gear its in. The point is, they are going to deny the claim anyway if the car goes out of warranty in November. If its starting to act up but GM won't honor the warranty now and you want to preserve the trans...you stop driving the car because as a wave plate fails more precipitously, fragments end up all over the inside of the trans which can't be retrieved without a complete tear down and even if pulling the trans out of the car, the average home mechanic doesn't have the skill to rebuild this trans. For those that want to learn what is inside one where you split the cases, there is a good video on youtube. The average home mechanic can change the waveplate however...not a complex job. But waiting too long, if the wave plate fragments, there is no coming back from this and the trans is toast.

Last edited by gm7; 09-27-2017 at 02:07 PM..

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Old 09-27-2017, 08:54 PM   #47
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

well you guys went a long way.. so I will start as best I can...a war timming chain job pays the tec about 8hrs that's drop whole subframe with trans/tcase/engine this is only done for head or chains jobs.i don't personaly know any trans guys who use this method of removal especialy if it's awd. a piston replacemen would have you support trans&transfer the moter to a stand for futher work...for trans or tcase work I hang the engine with a support fixture&hooks.i then remove trans& mount on bench.. a holder makes things a lot quicker..as for the home mechanic doing it.these are my thoughts. if you hear no buzzing/cavitation noise from the low case frount next to the radiator side of trans.thats a good thing as the internal filter is not plugging or pluged up.as long as the hot sample(after driving 20 miles) only had an aluminum sheen(a small amount is generated by the 3-5-r&4-5-6 cluch housing wear) I would consider buying a complete built 3-5-r&4=5=6 assembly...for those who din't know this part holds 2 cluck assemblys..everyone has looked at a 3-5-r failure and I don't relly remember if I covered the 4=5=6 cluch in the thread I did on the 6t70 o/h. but anyway if a home guy wanted to you could do the housing the way I recommended to gm7 in a pm,however I would advise just removeing the valve body cover and tie in a string on the output speed sensor (the relly long one that comes out of the case at the bottom of the valve body and wraps around the tcm to the top the white connecter.so you can replace the gasket..leave the string in the case to pull it back in going back together..) I would consider doing it ..if any of the above conditins are not met you gotta pull it to change the internal filter or you are just wasteing time and money..as for chain repair it could be sane way as I told gm7the same way you probably wouldn't have to tilt the subframe though..as for a re=ring. I would leave it in car...as pulling heads incar and timming isn't needed until reassembly..acaida/enclave&outlook/vue chain timming can be done in car but it will take you longer to set it up and stage 2 will be a real ****er holding 2 springloeaded cams and 1 moveable chainguide plus a lower drive gear the chain wants to pop over off the mark while you use the other hand to try to get the tensioner assy up to bolt it in.no thanks still be quicker to drop it...gotta collect my thoughts and re-read for ererlyer and see if I forgot to ansewer any questions and to explain why gm7's moter is not as rare as henns teeth,nor is the oil consumption issue..

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Old 09-27-2017, 10:21 PM   #48
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Satlite,
Thanks for the info.... It is going to take me a while to figure it all out. I have a couple of questions now though to help me out with that.
1. How high do you have to lift the car to drop the cradle and get to the timing chains? If I can get the car say 24"-30" in the air is that enough?
2. What all is involved in dropping the cradle? Something tells me that unplugging EVERYTHING IN SIGHT is a good place to start.
I have no intention at this time to do a re-ring job on the car.... I am looking at timing chain, sprockets, tensioners, guides and probably solenoids... just to cover all the bases up front.
On the trans, here is what I have experienced so far, maybe you can give me a little bit of a diagnosis. When accelerating quickly/hard, either from a stop, or when passing someone at low speeds, as the car is shifting, the 1-2 shift feels nice firm and smooth with no hesitation. The 2-3 shift is a little softer, and just a hint of hesitation. While in third, the car will buck or shudder several times. The 3-4 shift is pretty much the same as the 2-3 shift. After that the 4-5 and 5-6 shifts feel just fine. Also, when I shift into reverse, especially if car is cold, there is a distinct hesitation, and even a soft but very noticable grinding sound before the car will move.... and I have to be fairly firm on the gas to get it going. When I took it to the dealership about the trans, the tech took it for a drive, without me, and using his Scan tool said that the engine timing was jumping around so badly from all the slack in the chain, that he couldn't determine if the trans was bad... but he did not get any codes for the trans... all the codes were ones indicating a timing chain issues.

Thanks for all the help so far,
John

P.S. I have learned more about this issue from this site than all three of the equinox sites I have posted this question on combined.... I don't have a single response on any of them.... here... I am being inundated with help.... which is why I like this sight so much....

...
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Old 09-27-2017, 11:45 PM   #49
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Also, I will agree, I did badly ask those questions. So here they are more clearly.
How much of a PITA is it to do the timing chain, tensioners and guides in the car?

nothing I would want to do.it can be done but it would be faster to drop it..not a lot of room in car..








Second question. My car has the GM extended service plan on the trans due to the waveplate issue. If I am able to get a dealer to replace the waveplate under that, do they drop the entire cradle to do the job, yes I do hanging the engine is faster. can I do chains while the engines hanging no.. or do they just drop the transmission side a few inches to do it? My thoughts are, if they have to drop the entire cradle, for free, I may have them do the timing chain parts at minimal labor costs as the engine is already out of the car because of the trans issue. This would be a BIG cost savings to me, and give me a reliable car again...


this job would relly **** the tech.as 1st he would drop powertrain on cradle do chains then remove tcase if equied and trans.haveing to support the moter while trans out for work.. advisor would pay for extra time....I would not chains are 11.0 in alldata.(i have never got 16 hrs for chains ever..any time you want pm me and I will tell you what alldata says it should pay.my quote is 12.5 and includes alighnment and I will tell you how to brake their hourly rate down to see what you are being charged) 16hrs you better be getting a reacharound for that)and then you want me to pull the trans out the abnormal way and use a cherry picker to devorc and marry the trans while on a table of love.. o/h is 22 hrs no overlap and you would hang moter cuz it's faster..best deal I would do is the 22 for the waveplate(note I do it all that's new low/reverse,2-6,&1-2-3-4 pistons,new built 3-5-r&4-5-6 housing with new pistons&snaprings.all seals and gaskets renewed and pulling and redoing all the seals on the final drive transfer gear housing,(normaly most of the cluch fibers are not worn evan up to 90k I have seen so we reuse what we can or you have the option of all new fiber kit.most steels are reusable ) and say 7 hrs for the chains.but I would still make the advisor pay for it later especialy if he just pulled a # out of thin air..my advisors will ask me to accommodate them for these instances so we reviewwhat and how I have to do cirtain jobs and they have seen the cars apart before and come up with a number of hours that neither the advisor and I and the customer are both unhappy with but will get the job done .I again cant speak for anywhere but where I work but I wouldn't stay here for 14 yrs if they were shady.we are a small family dealer not chain owned. in the seattle area we have built a rep for being fair and get lots of customers ho were at other gm dealers and and there is an unresolved issue so they wont go back to then so gm sends them to us or good Chevrolet next door as we will fix it. so that evertt to oylimpa is our area.. I have read about dealer encounters here and am appaled.many of these things would never fly where I work.like the engine in this thread.it would have never been declined.we clean it out best as can.note it for records and advise the customer thy may have further issues but we never would have droped it like that... as for the oil consumption issue 2 out of ever 10 moters gm makes is crap.add to that 40 to 60% of all car sales deending on year are fleet(hertz) or lease then used car sale..they get abused.. so there is a 35% chance you will buy one of the good one used that was taken care of and not abused by lease/rental or as we call them the traders who are in every other ys for a new car&trade up.. but over all the 3.6 L is a reliable moter if taken care of and maintained.if I had one it would be 4k top as my interval..





as to event recordersyes the ecm's do record constanly we recently had a cts-v blow a rod.it was the typical (I was driving 35 mph on sunday while listning to the easy listning station when I herad a pop and it died..dtc's set when said rod exited the block at a high rate of speed showed 102mph,engine load 88% tps ay 78% and 7000 rpms in 4th gear)that info along with the teltale's from a piggyback programmer for engine tuneing(removed from dlc before towed in) tuneing) also murdered blackout rap,smoked lens's and 9k in wheels&tires..cust was stuned when we declined powertrain war and started yelling until I showed him the car doesn't lie but people do.a new engine/supercharger and labor was 25 grand on top of his payment..will we look at this data every time no.but if we have a funny feeling we do.just depends..as to braking your wave plate please don't try you are more likely to casue a different piston like the low/reverse to fail than fracture that wave plate...also cluch to cluch trannys operate at a way higher temps 6& 8 spds are around 160 after 20 miles.2015's and up brought back the deaded thermal valve it wont alow fluid flow to cooler till after 200 degrees(I died watching the flush queens trying to figure out why the flush mahin would not work).. and the all new dex6hp is full synth atf agedgedly good for 200.000 miles.. yes dex6hp will back date to any 6spd buy why you should change it at 60k..you cant use dex 6 in 8spd's as it will kill the cluch fiber..





as to damage when a wave plate lets go I can count on my one hand the number of case1/2's I have had to replace due to damage in the stack housing..usualy the only real hard parts replaced are the 3-5-r&4-5-6 housing and the outer case cover with the 2-6&low/reverse pistons..rest is all soft parts&cleaning.. the trans do run at higher temps and that's why the failure of the suplyer to heat treat the wave plates was such a problem apply/release metal stress causes them to 1st crack the split into a C shape and getting cought between the reaction shell and the 2-6 piston breaks em up worse..


as to those with special policy war's about to expire..remember you are entitled to ask for assistance from gm regardless of if the special policy just expred in the last 12 months..the sm/advisor will have 1 leg to stand on the special policy itself.and most avm's will approve but there will be more time involved in paperwork not related to the cust other than why it takes so long to dot the I's and cross the T's to get going on it.. and as long as the avm isn't high in his zone for that repair they will probably ok it.....




sorry for the rambleing diatribe.think I got all the questions if not post em

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Old 09-28-2017, 06:54 AM   #50
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Satlite440,
Will start with a big thank you for the incredible detail you provided. Only a man with your experience could possibly have the full lay of the land relative to these issues.

Quick question please...

Does the trans computer have any data/event logging capability? You mentioned about the V car you looked at which was denied service because clearly the ECM data log showed the customer was abusing it when he threw a rod.

But how about the transmission? Can the trans computer...or engine ECM be checked by a service technician to learn if the trans was low on oil (high temperature reading) if/when a 6T70 trans failed?

Many Thanks
PS: very insightful words about the 'lottery' of 3.6L engines out there you mentioned based upon tolerances from the factory...2 of 10 coming from the factory substandard...and of course running them low on oil is the real game changer.

Last edited by gm7; 09-28-2017 at 06:59 AM..

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Old 09-28-2017, 09:47 AM   #51
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

gm7 yes and no..there is and event log in every module.we in the field can only access if a dtc was set. say a p0717 speed sensor dtc was set due to the 3-5-r failing..there would be freezeframe&failure records to review..in the case of a trans high temps recorded would be considered normal as a sliping cluch generates a lot of heat..if there were only a high temp dtc then we would be looking at basic data.rule out sensor skewed,slipping cluch failing stator in converter before looking to abuse(note some lazy or greedy will jump right to abuse mostly due to wanting the higher paid cust pay times over war..note I beleave this has to due with training.as any tech may be allowed to do war work but if they are not trained to 100% in trans they may be backdebited the hrs spent that warrenty will not pay for as gm has the right to backdebit all funds paid on a claim or refuse to pay a claim for many reasons..but most dealers will backflag the tech.for those who don't know.picture you worked a 40 hr week then your employer comes back a week later and says they are taking back 12 hours of your 40 hrs because gm will not pay for them for x reason.we live with this every day.not complaining as I will choose flatrate over other forms of pay every day. but I am a rarity.. and my dealer compensates me well..all we care about is is it fixed right and cust happy..cuz if your not you wont come back. we would rather have several small bites at the apple having you return becase you trust us and we will take care of you vs 1 big fleecing and you never come back..thats not a sound bussness model as eventuly word of mouth gets around.we have a dealer south of us who only exists because there is a consant stream of new 1st time people who go there and never go back...

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Old 09-28-2017, 10:02 AM   #52
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Many thanks. All makes sense.

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Old 10-01-2017, 07:43 PM   #53
luklyz
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2008 VUE 3.6L
Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

I did the timing with the engine still in the car.
I simply didn't want to deal with A/C, wheel alignment, all electrical connectors and lot more bolts to turn. Too many things can go wrong in the 10-year-old car.
It wasn't that hard and there is plenty room to work with after removing the air filter and engine mount.

It took me a little over a week to do this in my garage, working evening-few hours here and there. Don't expect dealer labor time those numbers are unreal.

As far as raising the car to get the engine out I would say 48 to 60" that's needed clearance. Simply difficult in the residential garage.

I would say get few buddies, grill, and a big case of beer if you would be closer I would help you.

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Old 10-01-2017, 08:03 PM   #54
lord_varon
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2008 VUE 3.6L
Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

luklyz,
Yeah, with the red neck hill billies in my area, a case or two of beer normally helps immensely in getting work done .... the quality of the work becomes the issue at that point. ... And if you were closer, i would ask you for help.... but that would be one hell of a hike as it sits now!!!!

...
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07 Vue V6 AWD LOADED!!! aka SUPER CRITTER!!! Sadly gone, and definitely missed.
08 Equinox Sport 3.6 6 spd auto, AWD, even more loaded. And the jury is still out on it.

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