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Old 09-24-2017, 08:14 PM   #21
luklyz
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2008 VUE 3.6L
Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Quote:
Originally Posted by gm7 View Post
Are you saying cam cap wear is the larger issue at play here? Lots of reports of slack chains breaking guides. Is your point that a chain tensioner should account for chain stretch and the issue at play is really a 'false positive' because the cam shifts axially which displaces its relationship to the sensor which throws a OBDII code?

Can you explain this a bit more? Where did you obtain the thrust washers?...are they sold by GM as a known kluge for cam cap wear?..or did you spec these yourself? Do these washers have a spring rate and apply a preload to the cam end which gives them a more generous tolerance based upon tolerance of wear?

Thank you.
The issue is engine oil and lack of proper oil quality for this engine. The 3.6 is running hotter than other engines which is causing oil to break down faster.
This is why there was a recall that reprogrammed the oil reset light for all cars with 3.6 engine. They changed the frequency of oil changes from 7500 miles to around 4000 miles even with synthetic oil.

The vue has updated the style of chain that's why it's not on the list for the chain replacement.

I had a vue that was diagnosed with bad chain by dealer tech and after taking everything apart the issue was too much cam free play, not the chain.
I had a caddy too and it was a chain.
The cam caps wear is a side affect of the oil issue. The washers are GM solution to resolve that without head replacement as a unit. You can get them at the dealer. Check my link, there are parts numbers in there and instruction how to test that.

As far as complexity of the job I would say (for me) its standard job.I did vue timing with the engine still in the car. If you want to see something difficult, you need to check out audi S6 v10 timing chain or Subaru STI timing.

lord_varon

Did you ask the dealer if they tested cams? Did they even remove to valve covers?

They are burning oil because the oil rings getting stuck from gunk and sludge (oil issue). I will recommend GM Top engine cleaner and presoak. As far as CAT I would recommend something else not replacement.

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Old 09-25-2017, 08:44 AM   #22
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

An informative post luklyz,
Can you explain how I can get to the link with part numbers you reference?

How many miles was on your Vue you say you shimmed the cam caps? To me, its a big job for home mechanic and I have done my share of engine and trans changes. What model year 3.6L Vue did you own and did you own the vehicle since new or...do you suspect the car was subjected to less than vigilant oil change intervals by a previous owner?

Lastly, when you got the motor in your Vue apart fully prepared to replace your timing chains per dealer advice, how did you determine that the chains in your Vue in actual fact 'were not bad'? Did you measure their length to determine they were not stretched? Or...is stretch not really a criterion for good versus bad and there is another factor of chain wear that determines whether a chain is good versus bad based upon your Cadillac experience?


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Old 09-25-2017, 08:59 AM   #23
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

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Originally Posted by luklyz View Post
Did they even remove to valve covers?

They are burning oil because the oil rings getting stuck from gunk and sludge (oil issue). I will recommend GM Top engine cleaner and presoak.
HAHA, I was all set to have the chains replaced under warranty until they started to take it apart and found the engine full of sludge. Looks like previous owner never changed the oil in the last 90,000 miles.



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Old 09-25-2017, 09:46 AM   #24
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

atikovi,
What happened after it was discovered your engine was completely sludged up? Wow!

Was any level of warranty honored due to clear negligence to change the oil?...engine considered a loss?...or was the engine cleaned out somehow and refurbished?

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Old 09-25-2017, 10:03 AM   #25
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Engine was running perfect except getting a check engine light relating to cam timing. Cadillac dealer did the diagnostics and said it needed the timing chains replaced which would be covered under the 100,000 mile warranty. Then they started to take it apart and once they saw the sludge, said no, warranty won't cover it now. Either pay $2500 myself for the job or $500 for the work done so far and I can have it back the way it is. I said I shouldn't have to pay even the $500 when they could have seen the sludge if they took the valve cover off first. After some back and forth I settled on paying one hour of labor and towed it home. Spent about $500 on parts for the job and probably over 10 hours just cleaning out the sludge with solvent, q-tips, paper towels and tweezers. Cleaned up pretty good.

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Old 09-25-2017, 10:17 AM   #26
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Good job.
How is it running now? Does it use much oil?

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Old 09-25-2017, 10:24 AM   #27
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

This was back in 2010 on a 2009 model that I bought to sell and sold it after doing the repair. No idea how it's holding up but never heard back from the buyer about any problem.

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Old 09-25-2017, 11:06 AM   #28
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

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Originally Posted by atikovi View Post
This was back in 2010 on a 2009 model that I bought to sell and sold it after doing the repair. No idea how it's holding up but never heard back from the buyer about any problem.
Pretty remarkable...high mileage accumulated in one or a little over one calendar year where apparently they didn't change the oil. Must of been a lease. There should be laws against negligent people desecrating such a nice machine.

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Old 09-25-2017, 11:32 AM   #29
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

It was a beautiful car in the best color.

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Old 09-25-2017, 08:22 PM   #30
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

GM7 and Atkovi,
Here is something that backs up my statement that all the 3.6 engines have oil consumption issues. I got this from the Chevrolet Malibu forum.

These engines a fixed orifice PCV system. This bulletin fits your description well. You're well within powertrain warranty from what I see. Good luck.


#PIP4439A: HFV6 Oil Consumption - (Jun 20, 2011)


Subject: HFV6 Oil Consumption


Models: 2004-2007 Buick Rendezvous,

2005-2009 Buick Lacrosse, Allure

2008-2009 Buick Enclave

2004-2009 Cadillac CTS, STS, SRX

2008-2009 Chevrolet Malibu, Equinox

2007-2009 GMC Acadia

2007-2009 Pontiac G6

2008-2009 Pontiac G8, Torrent

2007-2009 Saturn Aura, Outlook

2008-2009 Saturn Vue

with LP1 2.8L, LY7 3.6L, or LLT 3.6L V6 engine

Here is a link to the entire thread. This plainly shows that this is an across the board issue.

http://www.chevymalibuforum.com/foru...cs/8099?page=1

I will be calling GM/ Chevrolet customer service to see what they are willing to do to support me.

John

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Old 09-25-2017, 08:28 PM   #31
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

And I am seriously considering running a couple quarts of Risoline through it to desludge the engine and rings. That way I won't have an issue like Atkovi had on that CTS....And that was NASTY ... Damn... only a year or so old and it looked like that!!!! That is sad....

John.

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Old 09-26-2017, 12:12 AM   #32
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

as a caddy tech who does engine/trans only.i can tell you these facts

1 the original oil life moniters had no milage limits in 04-07.there was a failed alleged algoritham the ecm used to run the oil life index down.i personly know of 1 cts that went 12k before the oil life moniter reached 0%...that's when gm 1st started to grasp the issue and set a 7500 mile interval and the reflash..

2 this is the biggest problem with all 3.6L's....it holds 6 qts oil..gm's acceptable rate of oil consumption is 1 qt per 2000 miles anything over this is excessive....so if as most customers I have interacted with do. they never check the oil between fill ups as recommended..so if suzy scoccermom runs the index down to 0% and 7500 miles and never checked her oil..its simple math .. the engine used 3&1/2 to 4qts ..so there is 2 qts of sludge oil left in the moter by the time she comes in for an oil change..meanwhile the sludgy oil has casued the oil rings to collapse,coked up and covered the fixed orifice pcv passages,and usualy the air filter is plugged as well..the moter is now inhaleing air to burn from the crankcase because of the plugged air filter(3/4 th of all acaida&enclave&outlook's I see have plugged air filters...so suzy soccermom keeps the car till 60/70k and trades up/in.but for 1/2 of the true milage on the car the engine was running on 3 qts of bad oil..low/no oil is what stretched the chains out..as for the washers they are only used on gen2 3.6L's..the new desighn of the LYY&LTT enigines with sidi used no thrust lip on the cams and the new vvt bridge style #1 cam cap was unable to support 1 anyway..also only a small percentage of units overall needed the thrust washers to stop cam walk setting the chain codes.. we usualy only found out it needed washers after the chain repair..some techs I know did the washers with the chains to save time and had to take the moters apart again so they would run right.the policy now is if it's a 5 screw actuator it needs them.if 4 screws use only if it had 1 already or you did chains and know timing is correctly set up in stage 1 and stage 2 and dtc's came back..kinda a pita..


also gm7 you don't have to do a full teardown to install the washers..there is a chain tool you install after pulling the valve covers and oil control solinoids. tighten the tool to create slack unbolt the cam actuator slide it forward and slip it in,slide gear&bolt bak in & tourqe..also note I have had to do complete heads as evan washers didn't fix the early 2nd gen cam walk..

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Old 09-26-2017, 05:26 AM   #33
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

As always satlite440, you bring great clarity to some of the biggest issues that plague these motors. And the one two punch of oil deprivation and plugged air filter likely kills these motors faster than anything. Personally, I have never considered a computer algorithm accurate for discerning time to change oil and I am one of the rare owners that check my oil once in a while to not only look at oil color but level. As mentioned, the 3.6L motor in my '09 Vue uses less oil than just about any car I have owned and has dead quiet timing chains so will continue to change my oil frequently. Also, I run a good quality dino oil and not synthetic.

Your post is a great wake up call and reminder to replace my air filter...perhaps one of the most neglected maintenance items which is perhaps even more critical on these engines in particular due to their PCV design and effect you explained.

Satlite440, do you know what gen 3.6L is in the '08-09 Vue and therefore what level cam washers are advised?

Thanks again.

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Old 09-26-2017, 10:05 AM   #34
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

most likely a gen 2..if you have a high pressure fuel pump on bank 2's head the radiator side for sidewinders and drivers side for longitude mount..it's a gen 2 sidi

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Old 09-26-2017, 10:09 AM   #35
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Thanks again.

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Old 09-26-2017, 12:45 PM   #36
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

satlite440,
I haven't seen you in a while.... It is good to see you back.
On topic, it looks like I am right, the 3.6 has oil loss issues. Do you have any idea of what is causing it, or does GM for that matter? I don't know about you, but I know that none of my previous cars went through a quart of oil every 2K miles.... and if they did... there was a leak some place....A leak that could be fixed.

And how much of a pain in the @ss is it to do this job in the car? Or, here is a good on, on the trans, which does have an extended warranty until 20 Nov17, would a dealership drop the cradle to do the job, or would they just lower that side?


Thanks,

John

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08 Equinox Sport 3.6 6 spd auto, AWD, even more loaded. And the jury is still out on it.

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Old 09-26-2017, 08:34 PM   #37
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

in a word "government epa"..back in the good old days when we built moters to last(ended in 80's) tolerances were a lot tighter..an iron duke 2.2L..the piston to cyc wall clearance was 0.0007-0.0017 in..very tight..however the trade off was a lot of reciprocal drag on the moter..this robbed horsepower&mileage but there was very little oil consumption..it is not uncommon now days to lower a piston to bdc and be able to eather fit a3-4mm pocket screwdriver between the cyc wall and 1 side of the piston.. so we go with a large bore and small piston with a large amount of clearance and use the 2 compression rings to keep the piston semi straight(those of you who have ever heard the piston slap in 99-06 5.3&6.0L gm v8's. that's whats happening.for those who have not it's quite loud)and use Teflon patches on the thrust sides of the piston..the advantage.less reciprocal drag meaning more horsepower for less fuel and easy to keep rotating at each pistons tdc&bdc over center travel..the downside oil consumption..further complicating things is adding vvt(variable valve timing) via oil actuated cam gears. and sidi(spark ignited direct injection same as most diesel moters)the mandate by the government to reach the elusive 40mpg by 2025 is the reason for this along with what now is a common 8spd trans(we are releaseing a 9 and a 10spd trans this year..where every gear above 2nd turns on the tcc(tourqe converter cluch on at the 2/3's end of each gear ratio's tourqe band to give each gear a limited overdrive as soon as you reach steadystate speed or a shift to the next higher gear... in my humble opinion the duramax diesel and the new baby duramax diesel's get the best milage but again comes with a trade off,the exhaust after treatment system..

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Old 09-27-2017, 06:06 AM   #38
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_varon View Post
satlite440,
I haven't seen you in a while.... It is good to see you back.
On topic, it looks like I am right, the 3.6 has oil loss issues. Do you have any idea of what is causing it, or does GM for that matter? I don't know about you, but I know that none of my previous cars went through a quart of oil every 2K miles.... and if they did... there was a leak some place....A leak that could be fixed.

And how much of a pain in the @ss is it to do this job in the car? Or, here is a good on, on the trans, which does have an extended warranty until 20 Nov17, would a dealership drop the cradle to do the job, or would they just lower that side?


Thanks,

John
No, you incorrect about painting the 3.6L with a broad brush that they all have oil consumption issues. Mine doesn't. I drove from Michigan to Florida in my '09 Vue which is 1200 miles and it needed no oil. I never add oil between oil changes which are 3-5K miles in duration. Yes, some do use more oil and satlite440 explained why...how tolerances have morphed for reasons discussed.

As satlite440 further explained, if you take a 3.6L with negligent owner who doesn't check the oil however adheres to computer generated 7500 mile oil changes, and due to 1 qt/2000 mi oil usage, an owner can run a motor out of oil coking the rings which makes oil consumption 'worse'. Piston ring quality is further degraded by running the motor out of oil. The engine needs oil for not only lubrication but also operating temperature. This in fact is an altogether too common theme...a picture of it in this thread....and no doubt satelite440 has seen more than he would like. That in combination with an air filter which is seldom changed is a one-two punch from hell basically for any motor.

As to re-ringing the motor...your question wasn't clear. A dealership never lowers one side of the cradle. For either re-ringing the motor or even doing the timing chains. Rcommended procedure is to drop the engine and trans on the cradle out the bottom of the car. Can both be done in the car? Possibly. But a complete PITA to take the heads off this motor for re-ringing...pushing the pistons up through the top of the block with the engine in the car. In the case of the waveplate, the 3-5-R waveplate can be done with partial drop down but not out of the cradle. Lowering the cradle slightly complicates the job but few home mechanics have access to a body frame hoist to completely raise the car off the cradle. Jacking up the body with hydraulic jacks and using jack stands with the cradle detached and supported would only be a last resort and working in very tight quarters to remove the clutch pack assembly.

Last edited by gm7; 09-27-2017 at 06:14 AM..

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Old 09-27-2017, 10:06 AM   #39
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

GM7,
I have to disagree with you on this, as I am correct in painting the broad view that the GM 3.6 burns/uses/has an oil consumption issue. GM has a special program/TSB for it. My post above, #30 provides a partial copy of it, with a break down of all the vehicles that are covered under it, with your Vue and my Equinox being on the list. Also provided was a link to the full thread where you can read the entire statement. Further research shows that this it part of a GM Product Investigations Program where product quality is questioned. Do you think that GM would spend that kind of money investigating something that wasn't looking like a very across the board issue with one of their primary engines?
Furthermore, Satlite440, in his own very experienced words, states, and I quote,'2 this is the biggest problem with all 3.6L's....it holds 6 qts oil..gm's acceptable rate of oil consumption is 1 qt per 2000 miles anything over this is excessive.'
He also states that most of the reason for this is due to the EPA fuel economy requirements which causes the manufacturers to reduce friction by having looser piston to cylinder sidewall tolerances.
So while your particular 3.6 in your Vue may not have an issue, it sounds like that is the rarity vice the norm. It may be due to you not pushing the engine to higher rpms, your use of regular oil versus synthetic, or you may just be lucky, but it is clear that your 3.6 is unusual in that it is not using oil.
I have heard from several other long time mechanics that I know personally that from their experiences, if you get a new car and immediately do an oil change on it and run regular oil in it for two to three oil changes, say 4-6K miles, it allows the rings and all the seals to better seat and seal properly. You can then switch back to the synthetic and not have the oil usage issues. I will call this hearsay as I haven't done it myself yet, but it is something I am considering.

Also, I will agree, I did badly ask those questions. So here they are more clearly.
How much of a PITA is it to do the timing chain, tensioners and guides in the car?
Second question. My car has the GM extended service plan on the trans due to the waveplate issue. If I am able to get a dealer to replace the waveplate under that, do they drop the entire cradle to do the job, or do they just drop the transmission side a few inches to do it? My thoughts are, if they have to drop the entire cradle, for free, I may have them do the timing chain parts at minimal labor costs as the engine is already out of the car because of the trans issue. This would be a BIG cost savings to me, and give me a reliable car again.

Respectfully,

John

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Old 09-27-2017, 10:28 AM   #40
atikovi
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Default Re: 3.6 timing chain question

Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_varon View Post
My thoughts are, if they have to drop the entire cradle, for free, I may have them do the timing chain parts at minimal labor costs as the engine is already out of the car because of the trans issue.
Theoretically that makes sense, but I'm guessing the dealer would bill the job as a separate line item. Regardless, it's still probably over 10 hours labor with the engine out.

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