SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn Ion > Ion Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-03-2017, 08:15 AM   #1
spenser4
Junior Member
spenser4 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 47
Default BCM bad

I have a 2003 Saturn ION the BCM took a dump and cannot remember security key values. Will start for awhile the security kicks in and has to do relearn. The owner got another BCM with matching part numbers from a junk yard. I have a real tech 2 and TIS2WEB access. I have downloaded the firmware and have tried to program the BCM. Naturally I get non matching vin numbers. I enter the correct vin. It starts to program the BCM goes to 10% then says programming complete. However the vin doesn't change and security remains locked. I never had this problem before. Also when I tried to TIS2WEB relearn security on the original module it gives me an incompatibility error with PCM. I could update the PCM using TIS2WEB no problem. Anybody have any idea.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to spenser4's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help spenser4 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
spenser4 is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 09-03-2017, 12:00 PM   #2
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,192
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: BCM bad

Other than one or two former Saturn techs making periodic comments to ask them, you may have to call GM support for help. Since you already have access to TIS2WEB and a Tech II scantool, GM should be able to help you.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2017, 12:52 PM   #3
spenser4
Junior Member
spenser4 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 47
Default Re: BCM bad

I would but I only paid for a 3 day download only. My buddy didn't even want to pay for that, let alone a diagnostic from GM.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to spenser4's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help spenser4 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
spenser4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2017, 01:21 PM   #4
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,192
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: BCM bad

As I see it, using a Tech II and TIS WEB is geared for dealers and shops with high turnover use and not for the occasional user unless you have more disposable income than most. GM and shops simply passes on costs, applying it to bills. Guess who pays?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2017, 02:53 PM   #5
spenser4
Junior Member
spenser4 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 47
Default Re: BCM bad

I used to work for GM and picked mine up used from one of the many Dealerships that were forced to close during the great recession. I do a lot of restoration on GM vehicles that's why I bought it. This guy is a cheapo and of course I won't use my money to help him.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to spenser4's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help spenser4 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
spenser4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2017, 02:26 PM   #6
bern
Advanced Member
bern is just really nicebern is just really nicebern is just really nicebern is just really nicebern is just really nice
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Diego CA
Posts: 538
 

2006 VUE 3.5L
2004 ION-2 Sedan
Default Re: BCM bad

A used BCM is married to the first car that it is programmed to. This is part of the security system that won't allow you to change the odometer to.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to bern's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help bern reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
bern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2017, 02:40 PM   #7
SQLGuy
Junior Member
SQLGuy is a jewel in the roughSQLGuy is a jewel in the roughSQLGuy is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22
Default Re: BCM bad

Next to the microcontroller is a small IC (8 pins) labelled 95040. It's an EEPROM. It's possible that contains the key data, it's also possible that it contains the VIN data. And, I suppose, it's also possible that it contains neither, or both.

Anyway, if it were me, I would try swapping the 95040s between the two boards to see if this either transfers your VIN to the good board or reenables storage of key data on the bad one.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to SQLGuy's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help SQLGuy reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
SQLGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2017, 04:31 PM   #8
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,192
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: BCM bad

^ Great ideas if it were easy. Unfortunately not. If you examine a bcm, you're likely to find conformal coating on both sides of the circuit board. In other words, the boards are sealed in a heavy clear plastic coating against corrosion. While there are methods to remove this clear coating, I don't think it's available for the average diyer or it's costly and toxic. And after removing the clear coat, how do you desolder an 18/20/24/28/30 pin eeprom? I think there's a little more skill needed about discussing chip removal. And if you're not aware of it, Saturn/GM probably didn't consider using chip sockets for easy removal and replacement of eeprom chips. Saturns aren't high end vehicles like Corvettes and Camaros where chip replacement and tuning are part of GM's corporate philosophy to help the ones with larger attraction and money.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2017, 08:39 AM   #9
SQLGuy
Junior Member
SQLGuy is a jewel in the roughSQLGuy is a jewel in the roughSQLGuy is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22
Default Re: BCM bad

I know what chips are there because I have a disassembled BCM in my house. I used it as a donor for a PWM voltage regulator IC for the instrument lamps. It was surface mount, as is the EEPROM. There is no conformal coating. You remove SMD ICs, whether 8-pin like this EEPROM, or 68 pin, or whatever, using hot air. You then clean the pads and pins with wicking braid, and you use liquid flux to flow the very small amount of solder you need when resoldering.

Yes, I suppose it's not easy. It's certainly impossible if you don't have the right tools. I use a Weller heat gun with a small clip-on nozzle for SMD work. Hejet makes a pretty nice gun for this, too. It's also probably not easy if you don't have the experience. I did this for a few years as a component-level bench tech. But, really, an 8-pin SOIC is a pretty easy one to start on. It might even be possible to remove that IC with a regular soldering iron.

To work on a BCM, though, you do need a vacuum desoldering tool to desolder all the through-hole connections from the main board to the connector board so the main board can be removed and its component side accessed.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to SQLGuy's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help SQLGuy reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
SQLGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2017, 12:17 PM   #10
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,192
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: BCM bad

I'm familiar with surface mount circuits when working years ago in a repair shop. As you're aware, surface mount components are hot air soldered with lower temperature paste solder and delicate handling. Perhaps a magnifier light helps for close up work. I didn't mention surface mount circuits due to the average skills in these forums. I presume the average diyer doesn't possess skills in soldering, much less with surface mount technology. Judging by the majority of members here, many do not have soldering skills........ leaving soldering out of most discussions here unless a member states their ability with it.

Apparently there are two types of circuit boards in our Saturns, coated and uncoated. When a member posted pictures of his BCM and replaced a capacitor as a repair, the board appeared to have a conformal coating. I saved a picture in my album for discussion purposes when someone brings up the topic of repairing one. Others mentioned a coating like sealer over the board, making it difficult to attempt desoldering components. Once aware of this, I just assumed BCMs are not friendly to anyone without familiarity in soldering experience. Discussing surface mount technology may lead to people falling asleep........ As you can understand, there's a point of no return when most members don't have soldering skills and are going in blind about troubleshooting electronic modules. I feel it's simply better to choose GM for $ervice or look online for used modules for swapping at much lower cost relative to a discontinued model line. Several members have gone the used module route with success while others (before Saturn closed down production) were happy with GM replacing modules and programming them for 100% relief from headaches. I think less than one percent have the skills for general soldering with even less skilled at surface mount work. And to make it as complicated as it can be, you've left out the possibility of creating a new problem if solder over runs and inadvertently connects adjacent circuit lines or sending static electricity into a chip and damaging it before or after its soldered in place. All done without a detailed circuit schematic to anticipate issues when attempting repairs on an advanced level. Perhaps you are the only one here on these forums capable of surface mount components repairs. I'm not.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2017, 07:10 PM   #11
SQLGuy
Junior Member
SQLGuy is a jewel in the roughSQLGuy is a jewel in the roughSQLGuy is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 22
Default Re: BCM bad

I looked at that picture in your album. Is that BCM from an Ion? If so, then, yes, they really are very different between years. In my 2006 Ion 2, you can't see any of the components until you've desoldered the main board from the connector board.

Here's what the 2006 Ion 2 one looks like (you can see the empty pads near the lower-middle where I removed the voltage regulator to use on the BCM that's in the car). The 8-pin IC I'm talking about is just to the left of the big IC in the lower right corner.

The OP has a genuine Tec2. That isn't exactly somebody who's just used to changing oil. It was also mentioned in this thread that BCMs are permanently married to the car in which they're first installed. So, which is true, that, or that people have had good luck with used ones, or that the dealers can reprogram the used ones?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20170918_180144.jpg (173.1 KB, 7 views)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to SQLGuy's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help SQLGuy reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
SQLGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2017, 11:31 PM   #12
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 39,192
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: BCM bad

My bad as I didn't mention the bcm is for the L-series cars.

I'm not informed on what GM can do to used ECMs, BCMs or TCMs. All my knowledge is gleaned from here as members share info on repairs and service manual info.

As described in service manuals, GM explains replacing PCMs, ECMs, BCMs and TCMs with new blanks and programs them with their Tech II scantool. No mention is ever made in service manuals about using previously used modules and programming them. None. Here's where members have successfully installed a used bcm and return their car back to service. What's known are two things; used bcm retains mileage that cannot be altered and original remotes need to be programmed with the Tech II scantool to the new-used bcm to allow remote keyless operation. Passlock can be learned at home using a 30 minute procedure or GM's scantool in 10 minutes.

A bcm is not permanently married to its ecm/pcm. They're interchangeable. All electronics modules like the ecm/pcm and bcm are 'married' due to one thing only - Passlock factory security. A fuel password is exchanged between ecm/pcm and bcm during the remote Unlock and key on cycle. If I'm not mistaken, the ecm/pcm has the fuel password that doesn't change and the bcm is married/learned during factory line assembly. Once married, a driver simply uses the keyless remote to activate/deactivate Passlock using the Lock or Unlock remote pushbutton. pcm to allow the ecm/pcm to operate completely - startup and drive away.

With Ions, the starting circuit is disabled when security is active (security flashing quickly during starting). I do not know if Ions disable injectors and there may be one Ion member here that was able to troubleshoot his starting problem by checking if his starter turns over and having the engine run - a no start, zero starter problem. I think it was a damaged wire that took wiring diagrams to trace signals to find the wire damage. A very unusual problem because this wasn't a Passlock problem (security turned off during starting attempts). Even swapping in a used pcm was done to help repair this problem.

GM's dealer service and service manuals are not geared/written for the diyer and always use new parts. With programmable modules, this allows warranty for repairs and control over what's considered safe parts when they're new. Used parts are not warranted at all if GM and the owner are in full agreement that using used parts may not be successful while fees remain. Since Saturn has been discontinued, GM dealers are a little more open to accommodating Saturn owners requests. At this point it gets murky because there's little GM can do if using a used part other than verify it works and program passlock in 10 minutes. If there are any service bulletins to update a module, its incorporated at this time. Updates by themselves, to my knowledge from service manuals are for minor changes. Major issues that result from drivability issues are always handled as recalls like the ignition switch fiasco preventing starting. GM and dealers are loathe to state outright that used electronic module parts work. Members here in almost every forum have shown used modules work. Most doing it this way are not concerned with having remotes work or seeing a different odometer mileage. All they're concerned about is restoring their car's drivability for as long as possible for the least amount of repair costs.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2017, 01:34 PM   #13
hudypete1
Member
hudypete1 is a jewel in the roughhudypete1 is a jewel in the roughhudypete1 is a jewel in the rough
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Lansing MI
Posts: 81

2007 ION-3 Sedan
1999 SL2
Default Re: BCM bad

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
I do not know if Ions disable injectors and there may be one Ion member here that was able to troubleshoot his starting problem by checking if his starter turns over and having the engine run - a no start, zero starter problem. I think it was a damaged wire that took wiring diagrams to trace signals to find the wire damage. A very unusual problem because this wasn't a Passlock problem (security turned off during starting attempts). Even swapping in a used pcm was done to help repair this problem.
Yes, that roughly describes my situation, and I tracked it down to a loose fuse plug for the #11 fuse in the underhood fuse box. I am sticking to that.

There was enough contact for voltage measurement, not enough for current flow. I am sticking with that diagnosis

...
Peter in Lansing MI

current cars:
94 SW2 (White, automatic)
99 SL2 (Silver Plum, manual)
99 SL2 (Dark Blue, manual)
04 Ion 3 (Berry Red, 2.0L automatic)
07 Ion 3 (Cypress Green, 2.4L, manual)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to hudypete1's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help hudypete1 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
hudypete1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:07 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.