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Old 07-20-2017, 01:52 AM   #1
Dman12ny
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1994 SC2
Default Deebs Style Circle Track Build

I am trying to go all out on my second motor for my other asphalt circle track car which is a 94 SC2. Let me know if I am missing anything to max this out as much as possible for being NA. I am open to suggestions. Thanks

02 Block, Pistons, Rods
94 Timing Components and Timing Cover
94 Crankshaft and CPS
94 DOHC Head Shaved .030", Ported and Polished
Custom Ground Cams D-267 L-.349, Adjustable Sprockets
91 Valves
Ported 97 intake with 97 Adjustable fuel rail (taking suggestions for injectors)
GSI Storm Throttle Body
91 Ported OEM Header
Cold Air Intake
Wideband 02

When everything is ready and installed my plan is to have it professionally tuned for maximum gains.

Am I missing anything to make this run and work well? What more could I do?

Last edited by Dman12ny; 07-20-2017 at 02:05 AM..

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Old 07-20-2017, 08:09 AM   #2
fetchitfido
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2001 SC2
Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

Without a Megasquirt (V2 is more than enough for an S-Series, V3 has far more options than you'll use) or some other actually programmable stand-alone PCM your "custom tune" isn't happening (the stock PCM hasn't been cracked for tuning...). You'll feel the difference with all the other mods without a stand-alone PCM but a custom tune has been shown to bump it up from ~135whp to nearly 150whp.

If you have a machine shop and a bit of ingenuity you can put 3rd gen pistons on 2nd gen rods and machine the pistons down a bit (never read exactly how much) for a bit more compression gain.

Using 2 intake cam's might be cheaper than getting a set custom ground, but there is the unknown of how much of a gain there actually is (feels more like the power band is moved up 500rpm rather than more power).

Depending on which Storm TB you get you'll have to bore out the opening on the intake by about 1/4", maybe more.

Don't forget to shave the timing cover the same amount as the head, otherwise you'll end up with an oil leak.

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Old 07-20-2017, 09:20 AM   #3
Dman12ny
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1994 SC2
Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

Megasquirt is for turbo applications I thought? And I had read the OBD1 was programmable and it was the OBD2 that hasn't been cracked yet? I got the cams already for $100 and bought them used with about 60 miles on them. I have all the styles of Geo throttle body's for this one I am using the GSI one and yeah took out about 1/4" on the intake manifold for it to match up perfectly. All of this will be done by a local machine shop so I may consider the piston swap you recommended. How much of a gain in compression would the piston swap be?Thanks

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Old 07-20-2017, 09:44 AM   #4
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1994 SC2
Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43309

Wouldn't everything in option 3 be what I'm looking to do when tuning? I prefer to use the stock pcm.

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Old 07-20-2017, 09:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

Stand-alone PCM's aren't just for turbo applications, they're for when the stock PCM is crap and can't be tuned...like the S-Series PCM (it's a PROM, not an EEPROM). A SAFC-II may be a cheaper option, but it's a piggy-back tuner and with the design of the stock PCM only works at WOT.

Piston/rod frankensteining: http://web.archive.org/web/200908170...6_3rd_Gen_Rods
It doesn't look like those compression ratio numbers take into account shaving the head, so keep that in mind when making your own calculations. Also be aware between the piston protruding above the block height and having a shaved head there's a real danger of piston/valve contact even with the correct timing.

That user was last on here 6 years ago. I wasn't aware anyone had been able to actually tune the stock PCM without giving it a socket and EEPROM, but check out sixthsphere.com, should have more info in more detail about everything S-Series.

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Old 07-20-2017, 10:42 AM   #6
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Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

You will want to use a standalone PCM, since you plane to use custom-ground camshafts. The stock PCM is not designed to run proper A/F ratios after the cams have been changed.

Dual intake cams are a cheaper alternative and still require the PCM to be swapped out.

The bottom end can not rev past 6,750rpms, before it begins tearing itself apart. So, if you don't build the bottom end to handle the new powerband, you'll wind up in the pits with a destroyed engine FAST.

Ditch the shaved head. I don't know why people think shaving the head is "good" for performance on any engine, let alone an OHC-designed engine. You are removing metal, which makes the head weaker and then running ut around a race track at maximum, red-line rpms.......

If I have to even explain the lacl of logic, there, then people reading this shouldn't be racing or probably even allowed to perform their own maintenance.

Porting and a valve job is all the Saturn head needs. Use of the 1991-1993 valves, with any 1994-up engine block will bump compression up to around 9.7:1(which is about the highest compression you want for pump gas). Running 93 octane on that compression will minimize damage from heat and possible detonation at higher rpms.

While you CAN run 10.5:1 on 93 octane, if you want to race the car for more than a few races, I wouldn't recommend it.....

The W41 "High Output" Quad 4 had 10.5:1 compression, from the factory(and a WHOPPING 190HP at 6,700rpms out of an NA 2.3L DOHC), and you can take a guess where pretty much every last one of those engines wound up after about 60,000-70,000 miles of regular driving......

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 07-20-2017, 11:02 AM   #7
Dman12ny
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1994 SC2
Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
You will want to use a standalone PCM, since you plane to use custom-ground camshafts. The stock PCM is not designed to run proper A/F ratios after the cams have been changed.

Dual intake cams are a cheaper alternative and still require the PCM to be swapped out.

The bottom end can not rev past 6,750rpms, before it begins tearing itself apart. So, if you don't build the bottom end to handle the new powerband, you'll wind up in the pits with a destroyed engine FAST.

Ditch the shaved head. I don't know why people think shaving the head is "good" for performance on any engine, let alone an OHC-designed engine. You are removing metal, which makes the head weaker and then running ut around a race track at maximum, red-line rpms.......

If I have to even explain the lacl of logic, there, then people reading this shouldn't be racing or probably even allowed to perform their own maintenance.

Porting and a valve job is all the Saturn head needs. Use of the 1991-1993 valves, with any 1994-up engine block will bump compression up to around 9.7:1(which is about the highest compression you want for pump gas). Running 93 octane on that compression will minimize damage from heat and possible detonation at higher rpms.

While you CAN run 10.5:1 on 93 octane, if you want to race the car for more than a few races, I wouldn't recommend it.....

The W41 "High Output" Quad 4 had 10.5:1 compression, from the factory(and a WHOPPING 190HP at 6,700rpms out of an NA 2.3L DOHC), and you can take a guess where pretty much every last one of those engines wound up after about 60,000-70,000 miles of regular driving......
Really wanted to use the stock pcm but considering other options (Mega squirt). I already have the cams so that's what I'm going with. I will be using 100-110 octane in this so.... also with the adjustable fuel rail I should be able to gain a few there if done properly no?

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Old 07-20-2017, 11:48 AM   #8
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Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

Yes. With that kind of octane, you shouldn't have too many issues with detonation.

As far as the PCM, it is encoded in Hexadecimal. An Australian company has learned how to hack them and reprogram them for the 1995 SC2 with manual transaxle, but the programming for that costs over $300 and since PCM programs vary by model year, it is not guaranteed to work in your 1994 PCM.

The MegaSquirt(while I don't personally prefer this route either) has the easiet user interface to use, when programming, hence why it is so popular and they come with new MAP sensors.

Adjustable FPR from the 1997 model year was a good choice. Injectors should also be from a 1997 model, BUT,

You can use this website for finding Saturn part numbers and their GM interchange info:

www.wholesalegmpartsonline.com

From what I understand, 1995-1997 had the adjustable FPR, so even 1995 Injectors/Rail/FPR would work(and may be better suited for your stock PCM since 1995 is still OBD-I like your 1994)

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
Mechanic: I can't fix stupid, but I can fix what stupid does.

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Old 07-20-2017, 11:56 AM   #9
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Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

Believe me, I went rounds with the owner of Sixthsphere, in my build thread for my daily driver, about using the Megasquirt to get even 150HP out of these engines.

I don't like the idea of having to rewire my car, so I am guessing that is part of your issues with changing the PCM(other may be the racing league rules require you to keep the stock PCM as well, and I know circle track doesn't allow shaved heads and porting, either....)

Now, as it stands, it IS possible to get just over 150HP with bolt ons and the stock PCM(not much more than 150, but you can do it).

With your specific build, the Megasquirt could probably put you closer to 200HP with NA. And since the engine is being tujed by somebody, you'll want to give them as many options as you can, whereas the stock PCM will limit what they can do with the tune.

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
Mechanic: I can't fix stupid, but I can fix what stupid does.

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Old 07-20-2017, 12:24 PM   #10
Dman12ny
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Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

So if you don't prefer MS what do you prefer? I am building this car to these rules http://www.midwestcompacts.com/rules
Would the mega squirt fit into the stock pcm housing? Also what is this Australian company?

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Old 07-20-2017, 08:16 PM   #11
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Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

Your adjustable camshafts aren't stock. You may only use variable valve/cam timing on engines that originally came with that option on the stock engine.

The cams are allowed, but not with adjustable timing. You may only use stock cam timing.

However, I did not see any restrictions on using the MS controller.

Let me see if I can find the link, from my original comment in my thread.

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
Mechanic: I can't fix stupid, but I can fix what stupid does.

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Old 07-20-2017, 09:44 PM   #12
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Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

http://www.totalcardiagnostics.com/s...r-support-list

here is the link for that Australian company that claims they can reprogram Saturn PCMs with OBD-I

I am NOT giving an endorsement of this software. My Saturn PCM was NOT in the list and neither is yours.

If you choose to go this route, you do so at your own liability and risk.

I don't like the MS because you have to rewire the harness to it. It IS the BETTER choice for your build.

Oh, and with that full race port, do not let your rpms get under 4,000. Your torque will DROP sharply.

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
Mechanic: I can't fix stupid, but I can fix what stupid does.

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Old 07-20-2017, 11:22 PM   #13
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Default Re: Deebs Style Circle Track Build

None of the 6 tuners available there support the S-Series (here). The page you directly linked to is for their scanners, which is made more obvious by their statement of competition with ELM327...

The stock PCM isn't reprogrammable, you program it once then replace the chip entirely to reprogram. If it supports 1 OBD-1 PCM it supports them all. The automatic ones may be a bit special as the TCM is built into the PCM, but as far as actual programming goes for the engine bit they're the same.

Megasquirt isn't that hard to install, especially if you have the skill required to make the stock PCM tune-able.
https://sixthsphere.com/showthread.p...iagram-How-tos

Any stand-alone PCM is going to require rewiring the harness. Shouldn't be too hard for OBD-1 cars as the PCM is pretty much only a fuel-controller and diagnostic unit (spark timing & rev limiter is done in the ICM).

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