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Old 07-16-2017, 03:29 PM   #1
Claybury
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Default Fail safe thermostat?

Anyone used one of these?
I was searching for a t-stat for a different vehicle and found it at Rockauto. Seems like a good idea unless it locks up at pre fan turn on temps.

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Old 07-16-2017, 03:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

There is a specific Stant 195F thermostat for our S-Series, and after TWO defective 185 F stats in the first 12,000 miles of owning my Saturn, the Stant will be my next choice for my S-Series(because I would rather run a little hotter than have to flush my cooling system every 6,000 miles while replacing yet anither thermostat)

You can search the forums for the correct thermostat to use on these cars. The aftermarket quality is JUNK, by comparison, and Stant was the original company that manufacture the OE stats for GM(they were 190F according to the Owner's handbook)

GM stats have been discontinued, according to the parts manager I spoke with at R.D. Banks Chevrolet, in Champion, OH.

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Old 07-16-2017, 04:15 PM   #3
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

It's odd how they show a S-Series car in the ad and a thermostat...yet if we were to go & buy a MotoRad POS you can't do it without getting a tiny little toy in a custom housing that isn't compatible with the factory housing. Once you throw out the factory housing you're stuck with buying another MotoRad with new housing...just a waste IMO. Spend the 5 seconds it takes to swap the thermostat in/out of the factory housing...

The overall design idea is awesome and how it should have been done years ago, so I guess it'd be worth going with MotoRad for this specific design even if my gripe about replacing the housing is still true with the new part.

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Old 07-16-2017, 06:17 PM   #4
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

I kind of think all t-stats are "fail safe". I have never seen one fail closed. That "pellet" that expands with heat will probably exert enough force to rip the t-stat apart if something sticks.

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Old 07-16-2017, 06:29 PM   #5
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

Older "drop-in" thermostats and most cars from the 1980s had thermostats that would stick closed, because they lacked a bypass valve in them. You could actually see them sticking, when doing the boiling test on them(as they would only partially open).

Ironically, I have the MotoRad housing attached to a NAPA 185F Thermostat. So far, it has been good to me. Winter will show the true test of whether it is still good.

I expect to run 3/8-1/2 on my gauge, during the summer. If I see the temp gauge at 1/4 for more than 3-5 miles in any temps below 60, then I know the bypass valve is shot and it is running too cold....

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Old 07-16-2017, 06:48 PM   #6
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

I have experienced multiple issues of the thermostat on a 350 SB Chevy failing shut. That little expanding thing is a wax+copper chips can with an 0-ring seal around that little pin. They really do fail. The present generation batch not as much though. The S-Series has an internal bypass loop that will keep DOHC semi-cool at idle.

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Old 07-16-2017, 09:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
I have experienced multiple issues of the thermostat on a 350 SB Chevy failing shut. That little expanding thing is a wax+copper chips can with an 0-ring seal around that little pin. They really do fail. The present generation batch not as much though. The S-Series has an internal bypass loop that will keep DOHC semi-cool at idle.
Similar experiences here. On a number of different makes.
The failure mode is usually over cooling (or no heat complaint in the winter), if the t stat isn't changed it finally fails closed. It's not uncommon to see wear marks on the armature from scraping the frame.
I am curious about the "failsafe" t stat since it has to be full open to lock. If the t stat fails closed what good is it?

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Old 07-17-2017, 08:02 AM   #8
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

Some people are just full of bad luck? The first emissions thing to fail on my 2002 SL2 was the original OEM thermostat, shortly after it was 5 years old and about 65K miles. I replaced it with an AFTERMARKET 85 celcius (185 F - the original was that temp) thermostat from AUTOZONE, made in Germany. That one is now over twice as old as the OEM and has 2.5 times as many miles on it.

FWIW

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Last edited by TXSaturn02; 07-17-2017 at 08:09 AM..

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Old 07-17-2017, 08:24 AM   #9
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

I suspect that MOTORAD does not make a fail safe thermostat for the S-Series as it is not a standard design used by many different automobiles.

The normal fail mode of the S-Series thermostat is to fail so to leave the internal radiator bypass loop open and this is a full flow loop which if not completely closed off will bypass the radiator.

The service life of any thermostat is determined by the total number of hot-cold thermal cycles, not time or mileage.

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Old 07-17-2017, 08:32 AM   #10
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSaturn02 View Post
Some people are just full of bad luck? The first emissions thing to fail on my 2002 SL2 was the original OEM thermostat, shortly after it was 5 years old and about 65K miles. I replaced it with an AFTERMARKET 85 celcius (185 F - the original was that temp) thermostat from AUTOZONE, made in Germany. That one is now over twice as old as the OEM and has 2.5 times as many miles on it.

FWIW
And ALL this occurred with the same driving practices. Hence over TWICE as many hot/cold thermal cycles on the AFTERMARKET.

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Old 07-17-2017, 10:28 AM   #11
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

So what? Many OEM parts are complete junk. They are purchased from the low bidder built to specification on a 6 month contract.

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Old 07-17-2017, 10:47 AM   #12
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

So what? I'm giving my experience so that people can follow the advice of the people who've had good luck ("Ironically, I have the MotoRad housing attached to a NAPA 185F Thermostat.") or people who keep having ("multiple failures of the thermostat") thermostat issues. Their choice.

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Old 07-17-2017, 11:39 AM   #13
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

So you are suggesting an non OEM specification thermostat. This is a great way to discover "unintended consequences" at some inconvenient time.

There are only a few actual manufacturers of thermostats and all of them have good and bad batches that still have reported failure rates that the manufacturer deems acceptable. What this means is some last and some do not and it all depends.

Generally the only time you see thermostat issues is when the weather is sufuicently cold that quick engine heat is required and engine temperature maintained above the minimum (OEM Spec is 187F).

You can look at the MOTORAD assembly and compare to the OEM assembly and see the differences and figure out the various failure mechanisms on your own.

MOTORAD is a quality product but does not meet the OEM design specification, that is the issue.

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Old 07-17-2017, 12:02 PM   #14
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXSaturn02 View Post
. I replaced it with an AFTERMARKET 85 celcius (185 F - the original was that temp) thermostat from AUTOZONE, made in Germany. That one is now over twice as old as the OEM and has 2.5 times as many miles on it.

FWIW
I'm guessing that it was made in Germany is the key factor, rather than it being aftermarket or marked a particular temperature.

Folks tend to be more pleased when their aftermarket parts are made in Germany than in China

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Old 07-17-2017, 12:10 PM   #15
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

I don't have to look at something to figure out the failure reasons. Why would any sane person so that? You read about people who constantly have problems with certain stuff and others that don't and make an educated choice on which product to pick. Studying a failure point on a product off the shelf is of zero benefit unless you plan to make your own better product. That type of smart person wouldn't be spending their life on a forum - they would be making them.

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Old 07-17-2017, 12:27 PM   #16
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alordofchaos View Post
I'm guessing that it was made in Germany is the key factor, rather than it being aftermarket or marked a particular temperature.

Folks tend to be more pleased when their aftermarket parts are made in Germany than in China
MOTORAD made a batch of OEM spec thermostats for Saturn, several batches actually. They can not make them now because of copyright and patent. They have produced a non-OEM spec replacement. There have been several failures noted on here but who knows exactly why.

That thermostat has several critical functions in this engine so using a non spec replacement regardless of where it was manufactured can cause problems. Go talk to people who own the various German cars and see what they have to say about genuine German OEM part quality. There are forums to read.

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Old 07-17-2017, 12:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

Shouldn't we ignore the "various German cars", just as we are admonished to ignore experience with traditional GM/Ford/Mopar?

Are there any threads here (Saturnfans, S-series tech) discussing a Saturn t-stat that has failed closed? There are plenty where the t-stat leaks, fails "sort of open", but none of closed that I recall.

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Old 07-17-2017, 12:44 PM   #18
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

No, because the thermostat is a dual valve disk design that always has at least 1 complete coolant circulating path open at all times. There are 2 paths open during transition between internal circulation and external circulation through the radiator. The internal path is almost completely adequate to cool the SOHC at all reasonable operating conditions and will cool the DOHC sufficiently to allow a safe idling temperature. If the heater is selected and fan on high in cooler climates a complete failure may go unnoticed. The usual failure is an excessively low engine temperature regardless of the condition of the main disk seal.

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Old 07-17-2017, 01:34 PM   #19
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
Go talk to people who own the various German cars and see what they have to say about genuine German OEM part quality.
There's a lot of b****ing about the price

The $100 part with a VW part number on it is $400 when the exact same part has an Audi part number on it, or $700 when it has a Porsche part number

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Old 07-17-2017, 05:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: Fail safe thermostat?

After the price multipliers comes the quality issues.

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