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Old 07-14-2017, 07:56 AM   #1
jbaron76
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

I have a 2003 L300 with the V6. I am having a problem with my A/C where it blows cold air when moving, and warm when sitting still for more than 1 or 2 minutes. Once I start moving at a speed of 20 miles per hour or more, it begins to get cold again. What I have observed is the following:
- The compressor stays engaged when I turn on the A/C. I have never seen or heard it cycle off yet. It only turns off when I turn off the A/C, and from what I have read so far, it sounds like the compressor in this system is designed not to cycle on and off during operation of the A/C.
- The condenser fan comes on when I first turn on the A/C, but then it turns off after a brief delay (less than a minute). When this happens, I check the compressor, and it is always still running.

My question is, should the condenser fan always run when the compressor runs? The fan spins freely, and when it does run, it appears to be running at a normal fast speed. So, I don't think the fan motor is a problem. Could this be a relay in the FCM, or some other electrical component that is causing a problem?

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Old 07-14-2017, 03:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

You may have two issues here; the cold/warm air and fan on/off. They may be related or not.

I can't comment on the fans but on the warm/cold air, what I can tell you is that the AC on Suburban was blowing cold, then started blowing warm on idle like at lights. Once moving again it would get cold, but over about a month the cold became gradually warmer. The diagnosis was that I had a leak and that was how my system was handling the leak of refrigerant.

It may be worth while first of all to determine if the system is OK on refrigerant level. If it is low, chances are you have a leak. That low refrigerant may be causing other issues like you fan.

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Old 07-14-2017, 04:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

jbaron76, there may be either a fan control module or cooling fan problem. Review the partial reprint from service manuals. Both fans should be running at low speed as soon as ac is turned on (fans are always needed to move heated air from condenser coils thru hot radiators to prevent overheating). If one of the cooling fans is inoperative (even if the blades move freely), this can allow ac operating pressures to rise above normal and create low cooling at low speeds. some may guess loss of refrigerant or other issues.

To check each cooling fan for power and isolate a faulty fan, on a cool day (if possible) locate both cooling fan connections so you can measure for power to the one not running. Disconnect this fan and insert probes into the connector and measure for voltage. Startup and turn on ac. The good fan should be running and you should see 12 volts on the other connector. If you have 12 volts on this connector, the fan is blown - replace it. If 12 volts isn't seen on the connector, the terminals are damaged, wire harness is damaged between the connector and fan control module (FCM) or the fcm is faulty.
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Old 07-19-2017, 05:21 PM   #4
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

Thanks frdyer. I have not analyzed voltages yet, but I have observed that the condenser fan does come on, but only when the radiator (puller) fan is not running. As soon as the radiator fan kicks on, the condenser fan stops. So, I know both fans work. I wonder if maybe the condenser fan is supposed to speed up, and maybe there is a problem with the relays that select medium or high speed. So when the PCM calls for a higher speed, the pusher fan stops instead of speeding up. This all would tell me the FCM is probably the culprit. What do you think? That document is awesome by the way.

Last edited by jbaron76; 07-19-2017 at 05:34 PM..

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Old 07-19-2017, 08:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

I turned on my ac and saw/heard both cooling fans running immediately. As I looked thru the front grille for the pusher fan on the left side of the condenser coil, its running (put my finger on the center hub to feel it running). Looking and feeling the radiator puller fan for airflow, its running. Warm today @85F, both fans are running at low speed and quiet. Turned off ac and both fans turned off. While driving around earlier in the day, running errands, I had ac on in local traffic and heard the fans cycle to either medium or high speed. Getting out to examine both fans to determine which speed they were in while waiting for traffic to move isn't a good idea with hot temperatures and short tempers. I did hear the fans switched to a lower speed in about half a minute or so to make me believe the cooling system is operating along with ac to maintain forced air with both fans running at all times in hot weather with ac on. When I had my reader connected (other times), coolant was always steady, around 195F, with or without ac running in summer or winter.

From your descriptions with the front fan cycling on and then shutting off when ac is turned on, the problem boils down to either the fan, loose wiring/connections or the fan control module.

To reiterate, when ac is running, Saturn compressors do not cycle off and on and both fans are running. Both fans run at low, medium or high speed.
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Old 07-20-2017, 07:17 AM   #6
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
I turned on my ac and saw/heard both cooling fans running immediately. As I looked thru the front grille for the pusher fan on the left side of the condenser coil, its running (put my finger on the center hub to feel it running). Looking and feeling the radiator puller fan for airflow, its running. Warm today @85F, both fans are running at low speed and quiet. Turned off ac and both fans turned off. While driving around earlier in the day, running errands, I had ac on in local traffic and heard the fans cycle to either medium or high speed. Getting out to examine both fans to determine which speed they were in while waiting for traffic to move isn't a good idea with hot temperatures and short tempers. I did hear the fans switched to a lower speed in about half a minute or so to make me believe the cooling system is operating along with ac to maintain forced air with both fans running at all times in hot weather with ac on. When I had my reader connected (other times), coolant was always steady, around 195F, with or without ac running in summer or winter.

From your descriptions with the front fan cycling on and then shutting off when ac is turned on, the problem boils down to either the fan, loose wiring/connections or the fan control module.

To reiterate, when ac is running, Saturn compressors do not cycle off and on and both fans are running. Both fans run at low, medium or high speed.
I have been watching the compressor, and so far it has always been running when I have the AC turned on, so assuming AC low pressure switch is operational, I know there isn't a low pressure condition in the AC system.

I have observed that both fans run on low speed when the AC is turned on. As soon as I hear the puller fan speed up, I notice the pusher fan stopping (I am able to see the pusher fan with a flashlight through the grille). So it looks like the fan is fine both physically and electrically. The only thing left is the FCM, or wiring to the FCM. Most likely the medium speed relay for the pusher fan is not working causing this issue. I haven't observed the fans in high speed mode, because the engine hasn't reached that temperature level while watching it. I am going to buy a new FCM ($88 on Rock Auto) and see what we get after that.

Thanks for the great information! This was a huge help!

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Old 07-25-2017, 05:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

I replaced the FCM, and unfortunately the pusher fan will still not run in medium speed. Because it runs great in low speed mode, and not at all in medium speed mode, and the FCM is now replaced, the next piece I think I should check are the signals/wires from the PCM. It could be that a wire on one of the two FCM wiring harnesses is not making good connection.

The logic mentions a resistor that is connected in series for medium speed mode to send 9V to each fan. I would assume these resistors are part of the FCM. Are they located somewhere else?

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Old 07-25-2017, 09:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

Ok, so I verified that I have voltage going to the fan when they are supposed to kick up to medium speed. That means it is the fan itself. What I didn't see before in the electrical schematic, is that the resistor which sends 9V to the fan for medium speed, is located in the fan assembly. The fan motor obviously works, but the resistor in it must be burnt out. I should have verified voltage before picking up the FCM. At least it wasn't expensive.

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Old 07-26-2017, 05:00 AM   #9
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

Although not written anywhere specific, I think the resistor drops battery voltage to 9 volts. Resistors used in fan circuits are usually designed to choke current flow as a way to slow down fan speed. The voltage drop is a consequence of limiting current. If and when you remove the fan, examine it. I've never read or seen a resistor on cooling fans and interested in what you find if you're willing to disassemble it. I'm imagining a rectangular ceramic type similar to drl resistors used to limit current. DRL resistors are ceramic, approximately four inches long, a half inch in height and about an inch wide. The cooling fan may be using a similar, smaller sized resistor that may be conspicuous if the center hub cover is removed unless its on the frame.

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Old 07-28-2017, 01:51 PM   #10
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

jbaron76, please keep us up to date with this after you've installed a replacement pusher cooling fan.

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Old 08-02-2017, 11:21 AM   #11
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

Interesting FD, so as I understand it, the 2 fans should always be on when the engine is running or just when the A/C is turned on? I just walked out, opened the hood, centered the fins on the inside fan (so I could detect they moved), started the LW and turned it off, and the blade was right where I had positioned it. I repeated the same steps with the A/C on, and still no movement. I didnít check the outside fan. So is this a fan issue or some module that needs replacement?

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Old 08-02-2017, 11:35 AM   #12
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

If I may be so bold as to answer, both cooling fans should be running wth the A/C on. If the engine is being started as a "cold" start no fan operation will be noted. The engine temp must rise to something near the mid-point mark on the temperature gauge before the cooling fan, or fans, engage when the A/C is not in operation.

Before doing anything with the Fan Control Module (FCM), the engine cooling fan fuse/fuses should be checked in the Under Hood Fuse Block (UHFB). If the fuses check out okay then the fans should be tested by wiring them directly to the battery to see if they will run. If they do run, it will be at the high speed. (Yes, fdryer, I'm taking this out of what I've learned from you!)

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Last edited by pierrot; 08-02-2017 at 11:41 AM..

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Old 08-02-2017, 11:51 AM   #13
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by pierrot View Post
If I may be so bold as to answer, both cooling fans should be running wth the A/C on. If the engine is being started as a "cold" start no fan operation will be noted. The engine temp must rise to something near the mid-point mark on the temperature gauge before the cooling fan, or fans, engage when the A/C is not in operation.

Before doing anything with the Fan Control Module (FCM), the engine cooling fan fuse/fuses should be checked in the Under Hood Fuse Block (UHFB). If the fuses check out okay then the fans should be tested by wiring them directly to the battery to see if they will run. If they do run, it will be at the high speed. (Yes, fdryer, I'm taking this out of what I've learned from you!)
Ah, ok, I'll check it later after driving it.

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Old 08-02-2017, 12:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

Take a look at the attachment FDryer posted earlier. It shows the fan logic which tells you when the fans come on, and at what speed.

I plan to remove the cooling fan this weekend and inspect it. I will report on my findings.

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Old 08-02-2017, 01:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky Pilot View Post
Interesting FD, so as I understand it, the 2 fans should always be on when the engine is running or just when the A/C is turned on? I just walked out, opened the hood, centered the fins on the inside fan (so I could detect they moved), started the LW and turned it off, and the blade was right where I had positioned it. I repeated the same steps with the A/C on, and still no movement. I didnít check the outside fan. So is this a fan issue or some module that needs replacement?
The easiest way to understand cooling fan operation may be with a little logic. As mentioned, a cold engine doesn't need cooling fans (coolant temps low). If ac is turned on with a cold engine, fans are needed because the compressor generates hot pressures and the condenser coil needs immediate airflow to cool off hot refrigerant gases as it becomes a liquid. Whether the engine is cold or warm doesn't matter as much as the condenser coil needs cooling from immediate heat. If for some odd reason the AC system generates excessive high pressures or the cooling system overheats, both fans kick into either medium or high speed. Coolant temps and ac pressures are monitored by the ECM to determine when fans are needed and what fan speed is selected.

If a cold engine is started with ac off, fans aren't needed. Turn on ac - fans should be running on low speed (only if the compressor runs).

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Old 09-28-2017, 02:19 PM   #16
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

Quote:
Originally Posted by fdryer View Post
Although not written anywhere specific, I think the resistor drops battery voltage to 9 volts. Resistors used in fan circuits are usually designed to choke current flow as a way to slow down fan speed. The voltage drop is a consequence of limiting current. If and when you remove the fan, examine it. I've never read or seen a resistor on cooling fans and interested in what you find if you're willing to disassemble it. I'm imagining a rectangular ceramic type similar to drl resistors used to limit current. DRL resistors are ceramic, approximately four inches long, a half inch in height and about an inch wide. The cooling fan may be using a similar, smaller sized resistor that may be conspicuous if the center hub cover is removed unless its on the frame.
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I just replaced the pusher cooling fan, and I can confirm that the resistor is in fact mounted on the fan itself. Here are pictures of both the old and new fans.

IMG_20170806_172107.jpg

IMG_20170806_172120.jpg

The new fan does run on all speeds now. I had to reroute the cable as it was shorter than the cable on the old fan, but I was able to make it work. Other than the cable length, replacing the pusher fan is not hard to do all. You just need to jack up the front end of the car enough to make room for the fan as you slide it out from the bottom of the car. There is no need to remove any part of the front grill or bumper assembly.

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Old 09-28-2017, 04:18 PM   #17
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Default Re: A/C Condenser Fan (pusher fan) Behavior

Thank you for following up with a resolution, replacing the fan. Now that we can see the resistor, I'd forgotten about the aluminum body resistors shown in the new fan assembly. It looks to be a standard off the shelf item anytime can buy from electronics distributors like Newark electronics. As per design, it has specs on it - 50 watt rating, 2 or 7 ohms.

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