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Old 06-29-2017, 11:47 AM   #1
'02SilverSL1
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Default New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

My 2002 SL1 has had several issues for the past couple months: extreme hesitation when starting from a stop, lack of power at acceleration and jerky motion at constant speed (even with cruise on). I've spent weeks going through past forums to help diagnose my problems.

So far, I replaced the MAP sensor and ECTS from Advance Auto Parts. I also had Monro Muffler put an aftermarket catalytic converter on. The tech and I were amazed at how clogged the original catcon was. Unfortunately, none of these fixed my problems.

I then watched RichPin's YouTube video about blocking off the EGR valve with a homemade pop can gasket. After performing this technique, the problem was solved. I drove all day with the pop can gasket and never experienced any of problems, so I thought I solved the problem. I ordered a new Delphi OEM EGR valve from Rockauto.com. Once I put in the new part, it drove well for about a day and then the next day all the problems resurfaced but maybe at about a 50% severity level.

Still looking for answers. Any suggestions?

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Old 06-29-2017, 12:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

Throttle body in dire need of cleaning?

Richpin video on s series throttle body cleaning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc5qCuQLmFE

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Old 06-29-2017, 12:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by '02SilverSL1 View Post
My 2002 SL1 has had several issues for the past couple months: extreme hesitation when starting from a stop, lack of power at acceleration and jerky motion at constant speed (even with cruise on). I've spent weeks going through past forums to help diagnose my problems.

So far, I replaced the MAP sensor and ECTS from Advance Auto Parts. I also had Monro Muffler put an aftermarket catalytic converter on. The tech and I were amazed at how clogged the original catcon was. Unfortunately, none of these fixed my problems.

I then watched RichPin's YouTube video about blocking off the EGR valve with a homemade pop can gasket. After performing this technique, the problem was solved. I drove all day with the pop can gasket and never experienced any of problems, so I thought I solved the problem. I ordered a new Delphi OEM EGR valve from Rockauto.com. Once I put in the new part, it drove well for about a day and then the next day all the problems resurfaced but maybe at about a 50% severity level.

Still looking for answers. Any suggestions?
If you are using any oil then carbon is building up on the EGR seat and it is leaking when closed. Order this Dorman part # 47007 from RockAuto or your local store and install the EGR base gasket. I will fit your car. That will break up the carbon chunks and they will pass through without fouling the seat.

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Old 06-29-2017, 01:39 PM   #4
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

My 1.9L SOHC is actually a remanufactured engine (from Rockauto) that my local Chevy/Cadillac Dealership installed about 15,000 miles ago. It doesn't burn any oil now and the throttle body, which had carbon buildup all over the inside, was thoroughly cleaned before mounting on the new engine.

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Old 06-29-2017, 01:52 PM   #5
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

Try the screen gasket. You have already demonstrated that the EGR is leaking when closed. You can block it off again and prove it.

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Old 07-28-2017, 03:06 PM   #6
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

I bought the screen gasket and installed it. Still experiencing little acceleration from stop and threatens to stall while stopped. Takes longer than normal to get to cruising speed. Shifting from first is a very loud and hard shift too. When at cruising speed, there is a noticeable jerking hesitation, almost a shutter at times. My wife drove it today and said it seemed dangerous to navigate in traffic with the acceleration problem. Would welcome and appreciate all the advice and suggestions you could offer.

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Old 07-28-2017, 03:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

clogged pre-cat? The usual fix is breaking up and removing the innards. Make sure you get it all out so it doesn't plug up your new cat

Notice in this thread, seems to be similar to EGR problems, can go away and come back again

http://saturnfans3.saturnfans.com/~s....php?p=1539392

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Old 07-28-2017, 03:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

Gut the preCAT stat!

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Old 07-30-2017, 03:06 PM   #9
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

I followed your advice and gutted the pre-cat. After I removed the exhaust pipe from the pre-cat, I shined my flashlight in the can. It didn't really look that bad. I gutted it anyway, washed it out with brake cleaner, and put everything back together. Unfortunately, none of my problems went away. Still the strong hesitation from stop to go, and the intermittent jerky motions at cruising speeds. I also notice there is rough idling at lower RPM's. I'm tempted to do a compression check on all 4-cyls. I have a suspicion it's in the engine. What are your thoughts?

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Old 07-30-2017, 04:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

What are the DTCs in your PCM?

I doubt it is the engine, with only 15,000 miles on it. And RockAuto is a reliable parts source for the S-Series. I suspect vacuum leal, EGR leaks, or a possible coil pack/ICM/Spark Plug issue.

Post your compression results and try to find a fuel pressure test gauge as well.

Or, since I know Billr is going to als you to do this(as it makes the logical sense), use an OBD-II scanner to read the Live data. This will let you know what values the PCM is detecting at the ECTS, A/F ratio detected by the O2 sensor(which will likely be lean since you gutted the pre-cat), etc.

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Old 07-31-2017, 06:13 AM   #11
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

Based on the results of the original EGR block test, I'd block the EGR again.

Though a pre-cat can often be a cause of excess flow, aftermarket regular cat or other exhaust restrictions could do the same. Beyond that, it's a replacement EGR so it could be allowing more flow, or the command signals could be screwed up.

EGR block is just as quick and easy as it was the first time around too.


No mention of plugs, wires, etc on the rebuild. I'd personally suspect ignition related issues if the EGR isn't the culprit. These cars vibrate enough that slight misfires don't make it shake much more, but the lack of power points towards less than optimal power available.

Personally I'd check the basics before doing a compression test. Pulling a plug (or four) on the SOHC is so quick there is nothing to lose.

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Old 07-31-2017, 07:49 AM   #12
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

Hesitation is not the EGR unless it is continuously leaking.

Hesitation is almost always traced to:
1-plugs
2-Wires
3-plug wire routing

Aftermarket EGR valves are less that reliable as a group. Block it off.

A wiring failure is highly improbable.

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Old 08-10-2017, 09:09 PM   #13
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

I took OldNuc's advice and installed new plugs, wires and even new AC Delco coil packs. This cleared the P0303 code as there was apparently a #3 cyl misfire. Not sure which of the three or a combination of any, fixed the problem, but I no longer have the obvious hesitation from stop to go or the jerky/stumble motion at coasting speeds. Thanks for everyone's diagnosis.

On a separate issue, I now have code p0446-Evaporative Emission Control System Vent. I have an obvious rough idle . The tach jumps to 1200-1500 rpms when I first start the car, then after 4-5 secs, it drops to 600-800rpm. It's not a steady, quiet rpm idle, but rather a rough idle fluctuating between 600-800rms. The engine even sputters and wants to stall at the 600 rpm. I currently plan to have a smoke test done to see if I have any vacuum leaks. Do you think this is a waste of time? Any expert advice would be appreciated.

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Old 08-10-2017, 09:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

Clean the gas cap seat and gasket, inspect for cracks.

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Old 08-11-2017, 11:39 AM   #15
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
What are the DTCs in your PCM?
This confused me, as no codes were mentioned in the original post (which led me to solutions of things that don't set codes), but it was the right question.

Glad your hesitation issue is fixed

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Old 08-22-2017, 09:05 AM   #16
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

I'm finally able to revisit my Saturn issues.

Since the last post, I did inspect the gas cap gasket and wasn't surprised to see the gasket cracked and dry rotted. I replaced the cap and cleared the code p0446. The code never re-appeared but the car still idles and runs rough. I still have the EGR blocked off, so I naturally get that error code. I broke down and had the local Chevy dealer do a smoke test on all the vacuum hoses and a thorough OBD test. They found no vacuum leaks, but the ODB discovered a huge clue. The ECM is signaling an intermittent ground short. They couldn't tell me if it's a faulty ECM or a damaged wire leading to/from the ECM. Since I put a remanufactured engine in this car, I have no problem replacing the ECM which is over 15 years old and probably ready to be replaced. I'd like the expert member's opinion on this. If I do purchase a new ECM, what manufacturer do you recommend? I currently bookmarked an AC Delco 21813187 for $300 and an A1 Cardone 4894-05100333 for $270. Both of these requires programming once installed. I also found a plug and play type unit from Flagship One, Inc for $149.99. I'm a little leery with this one.

Please share your expertise.

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Old 08-22-2017, 09:13 AM   #17
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

Before spending any money I would suggest you actually post this ground fault DTC number as the dealer tends to just give you the basic definition of a DTC and does not tell you any more of the story.

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Old 08-30-2017, 09:04 AM   #18
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

Oldnuc was right on with the dealer's definition. In fact, after leaving the Saturn with them for a couple days, they said there must have been some miscommunication between the technician who did the initial diagnosis and the service manager who told me it was a ground fault issue, because there is no grounding issue.

This time, I spoke directly to the technician and he had (5) codes:

1. EGR Valve Insufficient Flow. I expect this since I blocked the EGR valve
2. EVAP Vent Control Circuit. I replaced the gas cap that had the severely cracked gasket, cleared this code initially, but now it re-appeared
3. Knock Sensor. This is a cheap fix so I told them to put an AutoZone sensor in today.
4. Engine Misfire.
5. Engine near stall

I suspect the last two codes are a result of one or more of the previous codes.
Again, I have new coils, plugs, wires and even a new ICM.

I'm anxious to know if the new knock sensor will eliminate the rough idling and clear most of the codes. If it does, I might even unblock the EGR to see if the hesitation comes back.

Again, please share your thoughts and recommendations.

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Old 08-30-2017, 09:58 AM   #19
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

A failed knock sensor results in the ECU defaulting to the most conservative timing table, max retard. The stall is probably either an engine almost dying event or if this is a manual a bit of slow clutch work. It is not usually a real issue.

Engine misfire and the near stall are together likely due to the high degree of retard.

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Old 08-30-2017, 10:31 AM   #20
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Default Re: New OEM EGR fixed SL1 Hesitation Problem for a Day

Quote:
Originally Posted by '02SilverSL1 View Post
This time, I spoke directly to the technician and he had (5) codes:
Sorry I don't have any input, but it's best to ask for the actual code (a letter and four numbers, e.g., P0123). occasionally, those code definitions are very close to each other

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