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Old 08-29-2017, 05:57 AM   #261
Waiex191
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1999 SL2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Slotting the washer would have been a better way!

When I do the prime, is it ok to leave the plug wires dangling? Is is ok to unplug the coil pack? Old magnetos don't like to be fired without a path to ground, not sure if the same is true on the Saturn or not.

...
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:49 PM   #262
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Pull the PCM B fuse, that shuts off fuel and spark and all else except starter motor and oil pressure,and battery light. Thism is the easy way to do it.

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Old 08-29-2017, 09:21 PM   #263
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1999 SL2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

7 cranks, oil pressure light still on.

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Old 08-29-2017, 09:47 PM   #264
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

PLUGS OUT. Crank for 15-20 seconds. This can take several ~20 sec runs with a 30 sec cool down in between. If oil filter was not prefilled it takes longer.

If it refuses to go out remove filter and see if it is full of oil. After 5-10 15-20 sec run filter should be full. If not reprime and try again.

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Old 08-29-2017, 09:48 PM   #265
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1999 SL2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Plugs out, oil filter filled, up to 9 30 second cranks.

...
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Old 08-29-2017, 09:53 PM   #266
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Let it set for a good 30 sec to coll and then give it a good long crank. They can be a pain to get it to go but if you get pressure the starter will load down and you will hear it. This is the time the pressure switch decides to fail so listen to the starter while you crank.

If the filter filled you are pumping oil.

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Old 08-30-2017, 09:13 AM   #267
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1998 SL2
1997 SL2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Nifty aluminum handle, nice work!
Engine bay, soooo clean

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Old 08-30-2017, 11:25 AM   #268
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1999 SL2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Thanks for the encouragement!

I got to thinking about my oil pressure light. When I put the sender in, I used an aircraft thread sealant. Remember, I'm really an airplane guy, the Saturn project is merely a diversion. It is possible this has compromised the ground path to the block. I assume it is a single wire sender. I think tonight I'll jumper the case to ground and see if we have pressure.

The motor sounds good when the starter spins it over - mechanically happy.

...
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'99 SL2, owned since new
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Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
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Old 08-30-2017, 01:47 PM   #269
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

The light ON confirms a good ground. The switch opens on increasing pressure. A failed sensor is credible and they are cheap. The prime oil is pumped into the rectangular port to the right side of the filter base. You can remove the filter and if it is completely full of oil then there has been oil pumped and if not then the problem is confirmed.

There is an o-ring located on the pump suction tube where it mates with the block followed by a aluminum tube rubber coated suction side oil pump seal between heth block and timing cover. The discharge block-timing cover seal is a large o-ring and the high pressure bypass opens at 72-73psi and should be leak tight. This is a simple flow path and should just work if all parts are present. Which sends you back to the switch.

This prime step can prove to be a headache at times. A 40-50 weight oil can be used to prime the pump once everything else is verified correct to allow dealing with excessive pump clearance to the pump cover and timing cover. There should be a metal to metal seal between the pump cover and timing cover as a couple of thousands of excess clearance will prevent oil pump functioning at ~250RPM.

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Old 08-30-2017, 08:04 PM   #270
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/...L6UoammvrKEsAE

check this.

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Old 08-30-2017, 10:01 PM   #271
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1999 SL2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Thanks OldNuc. For the peanut gallery OldNuc helped me figure out I forgot to install some o rings which are needed to seal the timing cover to the block. First pic shows the two o rings on either side of the crank. Second pic is the block after the machine shop. The o rings are not there naturally, in fact they are still in my gasket kit. We are partway through pulling off the timing cover.
http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/att...9&d=1495511779

http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/att...3&d=1498860995

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Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, owned since new
5 speed manual
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!

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Old 08-31-2017, 08:51 AM   #272
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1996 SC2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Bummer but so glad you did the oil pump pressure prime. This could have been really bad.

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Old 09-01-2017, 08:58 AM   #273
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1999 SL2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

On the night of the discovery we removed the cam cover, pulley, belt, motor mounts, and most of the cam cover bolts. Stayed up to 1:20 AM last night and got the idler, water pump pulley, tensioner, engine mount mount, and cam cover off. Popped in the o-rings. Cleaned up the surfaces, RTVed them, and put it back on. OldNuc gave us a hint to cut the heads off a couple M8 bolts to screw in and act as guides. That was a great tip! We let the RTV skin per the directions and then torqued the cover. I was able to get the torque wrench on every bolt. I am taking a vacation day to finish. Adam doesn't have school today. My legs need a break from biking in!

Last picture shows the headless bolt, with a slot cut into it. That let us screw it out after.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20170830_204757838.jpg (161.4 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170831_210310589.jpg (157.6 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170831_210341940.jpg (128.9 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170831_211417189.jpg (130.0 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170831_230903142.jpg (129.0 KB, 12 views)

...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, owned since new
5 speed manual
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!

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Old 09-01-2017, 09:28 AM   #274
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Prime process should work fine this time Do oil the cylinders before cranking over to prime. Follow this at first start and run in.

After start.
-If engine running as expected continue to let it sit and idle while you inspect for leaks and other off normal behavior.
-Do not touch the gas!
-Allow to sit and idle until the fan cycles on and off twice.
-Shutdown engine and allow a 30 minute oil drain down time
-Replace the oil and oil filter with a WIX 51516XP or Mobil-1 209 filter and a name brand high quality synthetic blend oil. Valvoline works or Casterol.
-Drive car conservatively, no steady RPM operation and hold max top gear RPM to < ~3000 RPM
-Closely monitor oil level by parking in the exact same spot and checking level after a 6 hour minimum drain down time. Maintain oil level at the Full mark or up to the lower edge of the "U" in full.
-Once it has been established that oil consumption is zero change oil and filter.
-At this point using a high end 100% PAO synthetic oil is the best option. Amsoil 5w-30 Signature Series or Amsoil
Series 3000 SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel Oil is recommended along with the WIX 51516XP filter. Do not run these filters more than 7500 miles but oil change can be done by oil sample results and no more than 700 operating hours. Buy an hour meter and hook it up.

If everything works as it should the rings will seat during the initial heatup and fan run.

You do not need a mineral based oil for break-in but it is cheaper and it will not be in there very long. Save drain oil for the lawnmower etc as it is still quite good.

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Old 09-01-2017, 04:00 PM   #275
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1999 SL2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

We have oil pressure! Light went out 17 seconds after the first crank. On subsequent cranks it goes out nearly immediately. Reassembling plugs, wheel, etc.

...
Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, owned since new
5 speed manual
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!

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Old 09-01-2017, 04:51 PM   #276
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

That is what is supposed to happen.

Keep in mind that the 2 key on cycles AFTER the PCM B fuse is replaced are required to reset the ECU so it does not dump a half tank of gas into the engine when you attempt to start it up. This is critical. The 30 second delay is also important between those cycles.

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Old 09-01-2017, 06:32 PM   #277
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1999 SL2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Success!
https://youtu.be/yX5yG0dGw64

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Bryan Cotton
'99 SL2, owned since new
5 speed manual
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!

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Old 09-01-2017, 08:23 PM   #278
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1998 SC2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Good job!

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Old 09-01-2017, 08:34 PM   #279
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1999 SL2
Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Thanks OldNuc! And I appreciated your help along the way. We have started to button things up. All the inner fenderwell plastic is back in place. One question on the clutch- it shudders. Seems to be getting better but when Adam was pulling into the hangar I could see the motor yanking fore and aft. Our Hood is not on yet. Is this typical for a new stage 2 clutch? I did not go crazy on the grease for the splines or fork pivot.

All the mounts are new, and tight.

...
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'99 SL2, owned since new
5 speed manual
Rebuilt at 204,067 September 2017
Engine, subframe, diff pin mod, brake lines, headliner, alternator, and so on!

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Old 09-01-2017, 09:20 PM   #280
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Default Re: 99 SL2 rebuild thread

Clutch will be grabby for awhile untill you and the clutch get to know each other. As to the engine twitching, your dogbones are shot. A rebuild is required and it is relatively simple. I saw this in the start video. Google this part number and get a kit energy suspension 7501. Once you have the kit I can give you the instructions for the install.

What you will be trying to accomplish. Now that you have an engine that is in good mechanical condition this tuning is relatively simple. These OEM parts are good for 8-10 years of service with good dogbones.

OEM top mount, trans mount, 98 or newer torque axis struts and the polly inserts. Engine must have an even smooth idle. That means good even compression. Clean flow balanced injectors. The 3 rubber exhaust mounts should not be stretched when the car is at rest, just supporting the exhaust. These 3 suspension pieces will be what couples the exhaust vibration into the floor pan so the stretchiness and thickness of these is how you tune them to not appear solid at some inconvenient RPM. The Walker 35119 isolator is thicker than the original OEM. They are cheap so modifying them is not a big deal. They thin nicely on a belt sander but if too thin they break and you will be buying a new exhaust.

If you have an uneven idle you will never reduce the vibration to zero. Setting the torque axis struts to zero tension/compression at rest is critical.

The torque axis struts are of 3 different designs and the 3rd design, late 97 production, have replaceable inserts. These are the stamped and welded design. There are 2 pictures in my gallery. What you are attempting to accomplish is restrain the engine free motion as much as possible without going solid. The main axis of rotation is on a line between the top mount and transaxle mount. The torque axis struts are positioned to restrain the normal torque reaction and drive axle wind up. The poly inserts allow enough motion to not act as a solid link but do not transmit vibration well either. The idea is to keep large excursions of the engine/transmission and exhaust to a minimum. Small displacement of the power train transmits to large displacement in the exhaust. The rubber hangers will deftly transmit this exhaust motion into the floor pan which simulates the head on a large kettle drum, with you inside of it. You can get a buzz in the floor that does not transmit into the upper frame or seats but the large low frequency pan displacement is pushed up to a higher frequency. the characteristics of the rubber mounts determines where this buzz occurs. The trick is to get it somewhere you do not care. By minimizing the powertrain displacement you minimize the magnitude of the exhaust displacement you have to deal with. You can slightly change the static exhaust position to take all the stress off of the flex connector and have the mass of the exhaust evenly spread over the 3 mount points. The muffler hanger basically controls axial twist on the exhaust. I used the Walker 35119 isolators and just stuck them on. Ended up with the buzz from about 50 to 57mph and this is a speed range that is only passed through so I did not pursue any further elimination. the bed liner should kill this 50-57 mph buzz all by itself. The OEM isolators are a softer rubber and thinner and would possibly isolate the floor better but as they were 10+ years old and I am adverse to dragging the exhaust down the road I decided to replace them. The harder-thicker isolator appears as a solid at given frequencies.


Thanks! it is nice to see another of these major rebuilds come together with a nicely running engine You 2 did a good job.

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