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Old 04-15-2017, 11:14 AM   #21
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2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

1-Was the old coolant sensor a round nosed plastic one or the same as the new one (flat nosed brass)?

2-A signal analyzer can be an old style analog type or digital. Digital being generic readers in various prices from $15 all the way up to several hundred dollars. GM's Tech II scantool reads every GM code - engine/emissions, body, chassis, and network codes. This includes all emissions, airbag, abs/TC/esc, xmission, entertainment, OnStar, tpms, and bcm codes for every GM vehicle with either OBD I or II. Analog or digital signals. Generic readers like Torque apps are little more than generic readers with no programming or signal generation GM's scantool has. Readers are generally for emissions codes with more adding abs decoding. Aftermarket high end stuff used by repair shops have to work on all manufacturers vehicles and may have signal generation to test sensors, relays, etc., for live diagnosis. They're expensive. One member here says his Autel scantool can perform individual sensor tests but this is a moderately priced tool costing several hundred dollars. For casual decoding and monitoring live data, most readers on the low end side of costs suits the majority of us with one to several vehicles and brands. The choices are wide with a price point to fit everyone.

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Old 04-15-2017, 02:26 PM   #22
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2000 SL2
Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

That sneaky, sneaky car..

OK, first - My old ECTS was the flat-topped, metal tip. The kind that's supposed to be preferable.

Second - So, the idle thing was fine until I was on my way home. There's some stop and go and my car gets up to way on the temperature gauge.
As a side note: my cooling fan starts just over the way mark on the gauge. I hope that's how it should be. :-)

Today, as I pulled into my parking space (engine temp just over on the gauge), I took my foot off the gas and sure enough, the idle RPMs drop past the usual ~800, it levels for a second at ~500, then stalls. Then, and here's the kicker, I start it back up and it revs up to nearly 3000RPM.. slowly drops.. and idles at about 700, but VERY rough. I had to get into the house, so I didn't see how long that would last.

Is it possible my IACV works 'in general' but when it's warm, it fails?

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Old 04-15-2017, 02:32 PM   #23
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Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

I haven't seen where you changed the TPS, that would have been my choice, it's cheap, usually acts similar when it is failing and is right there when you are at the IAC.

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Old 04-15-2017, 03:32 PM   #24
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2000 SL2
Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

I had changed the TPS some time back, only to find the same symptom. I'd changed it because, apparently, an ailing TPS can have a small break in the circuit and when the throttle rotates past that break, the ECM can't figure out what's what and can cause a stall or WAY high idle.
When it appeared that my TPS was going, the idle RPMs would drop like a falcon, straight to zero, imagine simply cutting off the spark signal just because I took my foot off the gas. I don't recall what ended up being the problem with that symptom. It was a while back.

Right now, my idle RPMs move down maybe a little quicker than normal, pause around 500-700, then the idle either wins and goes back to the usual idle RPMs or loses the struggle and stalls. Or I apply gentle pressure, keep it around 1500, and avoid having to restart my engine every time I come to an intersection. :-)

I may be working on two problems right now, or rather, two separate causes. My initial post covered my drop in mpg and power with idle problems only happening when the engine isn't just running temperature, but a bit over way up the temp gauge. It's possible the mpg/power is a separate issue from the idle.. I just haven't been able to figure it out. :-(

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Old 04-15-2017, 11:58 PM   #25
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Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

The tps sends a zero reference voltage at ignition on time so the pcm knows where zero throttle is. When the potentiometer wears with voltage fluctuations, the pcm doesn't have a zero throttle position but something else. This lets the pcm run amok by random high idling. A trusted test for a worn tps in the S-series; when high idling occurs, pull off to the side and shut off the engine. Restart without touching pedal returns ot normal idle. This can be repeated as many time but testing must be done the same way. Each time the ignition is turned on, the pcm learns a throttle zero reference no matter what the voltage value. Its learned and used but when a worn and aftermarket tps is used, the high idling occurs until the engine is cycled off and back on. After market tps parts have confused many here and find buying OEM removes the problem.

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Old 04-16-2017, 11:00 AM   #26
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2000 SL2
Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

fdryer - excellent info.. my question is:
I get the high idle.. pull off.. shut off.. turn on without touching pedal..

If idle high then:

If idle normal then:

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Old 04-16-2017, 04:00 PM   #27
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Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

For tps testing;

Only with high idling, cycle engine off and back on (no pedal). If engine returns to normal idle, its the tps. If high idling returns after restarting, its something else.

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Old 04-17-2017, 07:15 PM   #28
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2000 SL2
Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

Update: OK, so, with new ECTS & IATS I will say that my car does seem to start well (sometimes it's immediate, sometimes it takes a little cranking) without me pressing the gas pedal.

Power is iffy - I drive a stick and kinda automatically adjust my shifting as needed so I can't rely on gas pedal distance/pressure. It feels a little better, but I'm not sure.

MPG - I went up 2mpg on this tankful, though it was full when I replaced the sensors, so I'll give it another tankfull. That's what, Thursday?

Odd Symptom: I've started getting something that showed up a bit over 1 ago and went away without me knowing why. It seems like the TPS stuff we've been discussing.
For the last couple of days, I'd be driving and, when I slow down for an intersection (I use clutch braking - the RPMs aren't down at idle when I'm slowing), my idle RPMs sometimes go up to 2500-2800 RPMs. If I tap the gas (while stopped), it'll sometimes go up, then back down to idle. Other times it goes up then back to 2500-2800 RPMs.
This isn't happening consistently, but it is happening.

So, tonight, after getting gas, I pressed the pedal a little while cranking. As I drove home, the RPMs sat at 2500-2800 RPMs (no clutch braking there!), so, when I got home, I stopped the car, turned it off, turned it on without pressing the gas, and the idle was ~800 RPMS.

I'm pretty sure this is the 'new' TPS that I got 1 years ago, but I have now way of knowing if even a new one is good.

On the plus side - when the RPMs are at 2500 at an intersection, I don't have to worry about stalling.

So, any suggestions for testing the TPS or sources of reliable ones?

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Old 04-17-2017, 08:57 PM   #29
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2001 SL1
Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

Keep in mind the electrical connectors and wiring involved with the TPS. They could probably use a check...

...
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Old 04-17-2017, 09:05 PM   #30
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2000 SL2
Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

Yeah.. I'll be doing that with a meter.. flexing and pulling and the like.

My problem is: How to I get one I can rely on. I hear, aside from actually going to a junk yard, I could be S-O-L.....

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Old 04-18-2017, 07:46 PM   #31
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Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaturnStick View Post
Update: OK, so, with new ECTS & IATS I will say that my car does seem to start well (sometimes it's immediate, sometimes it takes a little cranking) without me pressing the gas pedal.

Power is iffy - I drive a stick and kinda automatically adjust my shifting as needed so I can't rely on gas pedal distance/pressure. It feels a little better, but I'm not sure.

MPG - I went up 2mpg on this tankful, though it was full when I replaced the sensors, so I'll give it another tankfull. That's what, Thursday?

Odd Symptom: I've started getting something that showed up a bit over 1 ago and went away without me knowing why. It seems like the TPS stuff we've been discussing.
For the last couple of days, I'd be driving and, when I slow down for an intersection (I use clutch braking - the RPMs aren't down at idle when I'm slowing), my idle RPMs sometimes go up to 2500-2800 RPMs. If I tap the gas (while stopped), it'll sometimes go up, then back down to idle. Other times it goes up then back to 2500-2800 RPMs.
This isn't happening consistently, but it is happening.

So, tonight, after getting gas, I pressed the pedal a little while cranking. As I drove home, the RPMs sat at 2500-2800 RPMs (no clutch braking there!), so, when I got home, I stopped the car, turned it off, turned it on without pressing the gas, and the idle was ~800 RPMS.

I'm pretty sure this is the 'new' TPS that I got 1 years ago, but I have now way of knowing if even a new one is good.

On the plus side - when the RPMs are at 2500 at an intersection, I don't have to worry about stalling.

So, any suggestions for testing the TPS or sources of reliable ones?
Get a used throttle body, from a JY.

www.car-part.com

Aftermarket TPS sensors are pretty much garbage, compared to original GM TPS sensors.

...
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:21 PM   #32
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2000 SL2
Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

UPDATE - I just filled up with gas, got the same low mpg I've been getting. So the replacement ECTS & IATS weren't the problem.

It does seem that wet weather interferes a bit with starting. Not a huge deal, but I wonder if that matters. Any ideas how to test the coils/ICM?

As to TPS - I agree with those saying that aftermarket TPS seem to be crap. I can hit the junk yard, but how do I know the one I get from the junkyard isn't aftermarket, any indicators? I read that OEM Idle Air Controllers have a sleeve covering the spring/shaft, perhaps OEM TPS has something identifyable?

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Old 04-21-2017, 03:45 PM   #33
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Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

Just for thoughts, before you change the TPS, what was your gas mileage and what is it now that is considered low?

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Old 04-22-2017, 07:45 AM   #34
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2000 SL2
Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

I was pulling 30+ mpg with decent power.
Now I'm down at 23 mpg.
It starts without much trouble (hell, usually no problem at all), it gets me where I want to go, but even a small rise on the freeway can mean shifting down to 4th, pressing a bit more on the gas, and still slowly working my way up (slowly by freeway standards).
At intersections, I have to be a bit more firm with the gas and more gentle with the clutch or I risk stalling out.
Overall, I'd say that I'm staying in the lower gears by about 5mph longer than I used to.
When I stop at intersections and the car is near on the temp gauge, I often have to keep gentle pressure on the gas or it'll move down to idle RPMs then slowly just keep going down and stall.

This just showed up over the course of about a week or two. I track my gas mileage and over 3 or so fill-ups, I went from 32 to 28 to 25 and have leveled off at 22-23. At first we thought I got some bad gas, but that would have cycled through long ago (and gas treatments have done nothing).

When I replace the plugs recently, a friend noted the smell of unburned gas and wondered if it's a case of a rich mix or just poor burn.

As to actions taken, my mechanic threw in new plugs and cables (Belden Premier or some such on the cables). I've put in a new upstream O2 sensor (pre-code for slow response time), fuel filter (bad gas?), new ECTS, and new IATS as well as a full clean of the throttle body assembly.
The fuel pressure was 48psi with key on, when running, when playing with the throttle, hell, I couldn't get it AWAY from 48psi!
A friend has suggested new ignition coils (difficulties seem to be a bit worse in rainy weather) and we're considering injectors (in case it was bad gas).

So, yeah, there it is.

Last edited by SaturnStick; 04-22-2017 at 07:54 AM..

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Old 04-22-2017, 09:38 AM   #35
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Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

I am still on the TPS as the issue.

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Old 04-22-2017, 11:13 AM   #36
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2000 SL2
Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

I can see the TPS causing the bits where my car decides to go all all high-rev or stall out at intersections, but can't see how it'd cause low mpg/low power.
But, since the TPS appears to be going/gone, I'll go there next. :-)

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Old 05-05-2017, 07:00 PM   #37
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2000 SL2
Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

Update - 5/2/2017
OK, it's not the ignition coils. I tested them (found instructions in my Haynes).. next I'll take a look at the ICM. There are tests, though they appear based on "the car won't start" not "poor gas mileage".

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Old 05-05-2017, 08:52 PM   #38
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Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

SaturnStick,

With your 2000, I'd recommend a couple things so you're not searching around in the dark.

ELM 327 Wi-Fi OBD Adapter ($20): http://a.co/dn2QXtI
App ($9): https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...rdiagnosticpro

For 1996 - 2007 GM vehicles (VPW), this app will pull codes from all the modules (a very lengthy list) that were inaccessible in the past unless you had access to a high $$/Tech 2 tool. On our S-Series, I know it'll scan Powertrain/Transmission, ABS, BCM, and SIR.
It has worked well for me on these vehicles, and given the low cost/ease of use, it's easy to recommend. Good luck!

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Old 05-06-2017, 04:47 AM   #39
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Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

Did you do a compression test? What were the results?

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Old 05-06-2017, 03:25 PM   #40
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Default Re: 2000 SL2 - MPG and power dropped. A lot.

Whether borrowing or having a reader, find out what the coolant temperature is. If the temperature display stays close to the 1/4 mark even with a new coolant sensor, a worn out thermostat may run the engine cooler with the coolant sensor telling the pcm. The pcm may run a slightly richer fuel mixture and be the reason for lower fuel economy. The best way to know coolant temps is with a reader to display actual numbers. Normal will be from 180F-200F. Lower would imply a worn out t-stat.

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