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Old 01-10-2017, 10:34 PM   #1
billr
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Default TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

There, see? I have already kind of committed you!

That ISN is supposed to be a "use one time" item, and the OEM supply seems to be gone, or nearly so. Some really outrageous prices have been cited recently.

I don't know if it is "one time" because it is TTY, or just because of the (dry) thread-lock pre-applied to the OEM nut. I (and others, I think) have reused them using various liquid thread-lock compounds. However, some folks would prefer not to reuse, and the OEM ones obviously aren't adequate anyway. I have vowed to design a better one, if I ever have to go in there again... but you (ch44) bit first!

Unfortunately, the nut sits down in a "well" and I suspect the male threads it mates with are rather short; so it will take a bit of design and fab work to duplicate, much less improve on it. Sorry, I don't have any of the pertinent dimensions on hand.

Anybody out there interested in seeing colonelhogan44 give this a try?

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Old 01-10-2017, 11:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Haha, thanks for volunteering me! If we could get a group buy together to cover costs of the initial run, I'd be game to design an improved replacement. I know a guy who probably has several unused still in the cupholder of one of his Saturns...ordered multiple when he fixed it on his car the first time and I kind of casually helped/watched. He opened the box and dumped the extras in the cup holder and I doubt they ever left. I'll have to ping him to see if he still has them.

A quick search of eBay shows that the nut supply has indeed dried up. If everyone on this forum with an auto tranny who is planning to keep their car for a while joined the group buy, we could get the price down pretty low.

I have 231k on my original auto transmission, with original valve body and everything. I'll probably need one at some point too.

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Old 01-10-2017, 11:59 PM   #3
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

The nut is a common aircraft part.

I previously asked if someone who was interested in posting the shaft diameter and pitch and I can check availability. This is an aircraft part so it will probably have paperwork in small lots. The special threadlocker thermal melt adhesive is not yet identified.

As I never received a response to the request for technical info I have dropped it.

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Old 01-11-2017, 12:13 AM   #4
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Oldnuc,

What is that specific type of nut called when used in the aviation industry?

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Old 01-11-2017, 12:40 AM   #5
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

12 point flange nut and possibly prevailing torque 12 point flange nut.
http://www.arconic.com/global/en/home.asp

I was going to dig into Machinery Handbook but without the shaft side/pitch it would have been a potential time wasting exercise. Arconic is a manufacturer-supplier of these.

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Old 01-11-2017, 12:50 AM   #6
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

As I recall, it is a 12-point "flange nut", similar to MS9766-9767 or MS90415.

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Old 01-11-2017, 11:00 PM   #7
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Quote:
Originally Posted by colonelhogan44 View Post
Haha, thanks for volunteering me! If we could get a group buy together to cover costs of the initial run, I'd be game to design an improved replacement. I know a guy who probably has several unused still in the cupholder of one of his Saturns...ordered multiple when he fixed it on his car the first time and I kind of casually helped/watched. He opened the box and dumped the extras in the cup holder and I doubt they ever left. I'll have to ping him to see if he still has them.

A quick search of eBay shows that the nut supply has indeed dried up. If everyone on this forum with an auto tranny who is planning to keep their car for a while joined the group buy, we could get the price down pretty low.

I have 231k on my original auto transmission, with original valve body and everything. I'll probably need one at some point too.
Wait, aren't you the guy that fabricated the EGR adapter plates, for older Saturns to use the electronic EGR from the 1995-up engines?

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Old 01-12-2017, 02:03 AM   #8
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Yeah, I designed them, prototyped them and then never found enough interest to make a run of them. I'm still sitting on the design files in case I need them at some point. I'm a mechanical engineer (I do new product development, prototyping and other fun stuff) by day and an auto enthusiast by night/weekend.

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Old 01-12-2017, 03:34 AM   #9
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
I was going to dig into Machinery Handbook but without the shaft side/pitch it would have been a potential time wasting exercise. Arconic is a manufacturer-supplier of these.
OldNuc, I should be doing this job in the next week and was planning to caliper things. Will thread major diameter and pitch be sufficient?

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Old 01-12-2017, 09:31 AM   #10
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Yes, these nuts are not manufactured in a wide range of sizes so a mil spec for general nut properties does not specify a specific nut. At present cleaning the shaft and old nut with MEK or acetone and using 3M TL-71 is about the only option. Keep in mind the OEM design fails rapidly if the trans is operated with low voltage which is the initiator of the slam shifting that causes the nut to rapidly back off.

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Old 01-12-2017, 10:34 AM   #11
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Magly, also measure how long the male thread is and try to get a feel for how high the nut can be before it will contact the side cover or tube. Measure the bore of the "well" in the clutch. I know it is about 1.200", but don't know exact. Take several good pictures. Hopefully an old nut can be made available for a sample, but I have hopes that something better can be designed.

Still, there will be no hope of economically reproducing these unless some interest shown... same as the EGR adapter.

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Old 01-12-2017, 05:10 PM   #12
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

It should be an off-the-shelf part but probably without the friction melt thread lock.

Shaft diameter and thread pitch is all that is required.

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Old 01-12-2017, 06:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Off the shelf from where? If you can find a reasonable source, then this thread will become pointless and we can close it out.

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Old 01-13-2017, 01:56 AM   #14
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
Magly, also measure how long the male thread is and try to get a feel for how high the nut can be before it will contact the side cover or tube. Measure the bore of the "well" in the clutch. I know it is about 1.200", but don't know exact. Take several good pictures. Hopefully an old nut can be made available for a sample, but I have hopes that something better can be designed.

Still, there will be no hope of economically reproducing these unless some interest shown... same as the EGR adapter.
Was planning to measure the bore of that well, as well. Seems like OldNuc is the only one to have posted dimensions related to this, and here only that <= 1.2" is sufficient for a socket to fit. Will go for the other measures as well.

A caveat is I'm not sure if I'm going to find a loose input shaft nut or not. This is part of a reverse slam repair where I'm also replacing the valve body. If the nut is still tight and doesn't want to loosen short of a lot of effort, I may not remove it and not be able to do some of the measurements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
At present cleaning the shaft and old nut with MEK or acetone and using 3M TL-71 is about the only option.
I read your discussion of this product in a previous message, that it was (nearly) the only threadlocker to be found that would be sufficient. The specs (would post a link to this but not allowed) for this give a breakaway torque of 225 in/lb, prevailing torque 345 in/lb (average). Loctite 263 (a recent version) datasheet lists 275 breakaway, 290 prevailing. All measurements on 3/8"-16 threads.

The Loctite 263 falls a little short but perhaps close enough to be another viable option. One benefit is it supposed to work well without primer, where other Loctites and the TL-71 recommend primer for, among other things, black-oxide finishes; which I believe this nut is coated with based on the pictures I saw (although I think the male threads are bare metal).

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Old 01-13-2017, 10:02 AM   #15
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

magly:
Threads are bare metal and the original locking compound must be completely removed to allow use of anything else. Loctite 272 is as good as it gets with-that product line and the 3M will produce a better lock. Unfortunately there are few leads as to what Saturn used and every other available product is more or less inadequate. These nuts are not readily available in every metric size and that is why the actual shaft info is required to proceed with sourcing. Loctite 620 might be an option as it is not a thread locker but a bearing mount adhesive and it puts up quite a fight when it comes to removal.

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Old 01-13-2017, 11:23 AM   #16
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Yep, 620 is what I recommended a long time ago.

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Old 01-13-2017, 11:45 AM   #17
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

The problem is 620 is expensive and not readily available in most localities. The 620 requires proper application to function properly and that is somewhat of a challenge as well.

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Old 01-13-2017, 08:26 PM   #18
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
magly:
Loctite 272 is as good as it gets with-that product line and the 3M will produce a better lock. Unfortunately there are few leads as to what Saturn used and every other available product is more or less inadequate.
No it isn't. Loctite 272 is not as strong as Loctite 263. It's datasheet breakaway/prevail torques as posted above are 159/159 inch pounds (vs. 275/290 for the 263, as I posted above). Indeed the TL71 does beat the 263 on prevailing torque but only by 16% (of the 345).

In fact I might even be giving the TL71 an unfair advantage. Its datasheet quotes a lower bound and an average (which is higher) and I was using the average. Without digging it may be that the Loctite numbers are the lower bounds, in which case the Loctite 263 is stronger than the TL71.

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Old 01-13-2017, 08:54 PM   #19
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

The numbers are somewhat arbitrary as the holding ability for some, but not all, formulations are diameter dependent. The values provided are different depending on where you look. The 272 is for large diameter shafts, over 3/8-1/2" or so and less than that it is near useless. The problem is none of them will prevent the nut from loosening under impact.

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Old 01-13-2017, 09:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: TAAT ISNs from colonelhogan44

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldNuc View Post
The numbers are somewhat arbitrary as the holding ability for some, but not all, formulations are diameter dependent. The values provided are different depending on where you look. The 272 is for large diameter shafts, over 3/8-1/2" or so and less than that it is near useless. The problem is none of them will prevent the nut from loosening under impact.
If you read my original reply you will see that the values I chose are comparable, all for 3/8"-16 threads.

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