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Old 12-12-2016, 03:49 PM   #21
OldNuc
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

Jimmy123: Take the advice from SC2Sick post #19 and use a Megasquirt to run the engine and then use the Saturn PCM to run the cluster etc. This will be easy to do and a side benefit is you can actually retune the diesel so it runs right.

Last edited by OldNuc; 12-12-2016 at 03:58 PM..

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Old 12-12-2016, 07:43 PM   #22
Jimmy123
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

fdryer: Thank you, I do have access to Alldata so wiring diagrams for whatever year Saturn I end up choosing, so that is not a problem, but I do appreciate the help.

Oldnuc: I have done further digging and found that you were right about the temperature switch for the fan being in the VW radiator, I'm going to use the Saturn radiator and coolant reservoir in my swap, so I will have to rely on the thermostatic switch I've shown before and my manual fan switch (thanks again wolfman)

I've never heard of a megasquirt ecu before but I'll have to look into that because I don't know anything about that end of it all. I'm sure you could enlighten me as what all I could do with it.

On the previous build they were able to eliminate the Saturn PCM and just splice the cluster wires for each gauge into the corresponding wire on the VW harness. I'll list the wiring I've figured out as far as the cluster goes below and you guess can give me your opinions

As far as what year I want I'm leaning towards a Gen 1 since that is what the previous user did, but I currently have a 2002 and it has my favorite interior of all the generations, which is the main reason I want to do this with a Saturn, I like all of the S-Series cars though. I'm also assuming that a Gen 3 would be more complex with the addition of a BCM, but I haven't really looked into it, just a thought.

Saturn TDI Cluster Wiring
MIL light = VW ECU Pin 60 to Saturn Cluster Connector 12129405 Cavity D
Speedo = VW ECU Pin 43 to Saturn Cluster Connector 12129405 Cavity J
(likely from the Dakota Signal Converters)
Battery Light = VW Blue wire from alternator to Saturn Cluster Connector 1219406 Cavity N
Oil Light = VW ECU Pin 16 to Saturn Cluster Connector 12129406 Cavity O
Tach = VW ECU Pin 2 to Saturn Cluster Connector 12129406 Cavity K
(likely from the Dakota Signal Converters)
Coolant Temp Gauge = VW ECU Pin 14 to Saturn Cluster Connector 12129406 Cavity D

Everything with the fuel gauge is factory Saturn so it will work the same, as well as the brake light, turn signals, high beams, DRL's, ETC.

I haven't figured out the coolant temp too high light yet tho.

I also added a glowplug light by routing the VW glow plug indicator light to the Saturn upshift light (which VW does not use as far as I'm aware)

Glow Plugs = VW ECU Pin 48 to Saturn Cluster Connector 12129405 Cavity E

(On a side note I never expected to get such a response to this and I really appreciate all you guy's help and support through this project)

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Old 12-12-2016, 08:06 PM   #23
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

The major challenge in this swap is the mechanical end of it all. It is possible to install a Saturn ECTS type temp sensor into the cooling system in the proper spot and let the Saturn pcm run the fan and use your thermal bulb for the after off radiator high temp cooling phase. Splicing in different signals to the gauges may or may not be the easiest approach. Using a used Megasquirt 1 to tune that engine would be an excellent idea. Then the VW pcm can go in the junk box. With this swap there is no way it will be road legal emissions wise so I hope you are in a non-inspection state or a state where a VW diesel in a Saturn will go unnoticed.

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Old 12-12-2016, 09:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

The state I live in doesn't have emissions inspections, only safety inspections, so as long as I do everything right I don't see why it wouldn't be road legal in my state (WV), but I know a few mechanics and could get a sticker if it really came down to it.

As far as the megasquirt 1 goes I am very intrigued to learn more about it and what all it's capable of doing for me, because that type of tuning is out of my range of knowledge, but I'm still trying to learn. From what I understand on the first conversion the guy just used VAG-COM to tune everything.

I would like to use only one ECU just to keep things as simple as possible, that's why I'd like to eliminate the Saturn PCM and just piggyback all the functions I can from the VW.

Last edited by Jimmy123; 12-12-2016 at 09:13 PM..

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Old 12-12-2016, 09:19 PM   #25
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

I'm now sorting through the ignition switch wires and will be posting a diagram of what I've figured out sometime tomorrow.

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Old 12-12-2016, 09:58 PM   #26
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Medtactics View Post
Everyone here knows this is a diesel engine right? Operating temp is 200-220 and no less. Fan kicks on at 210 or 215. Never lower the operating temp, nor operate for any length of time below 200 unless you got wads of cash laying around. They are not cheap to rebuild.
I think this was missed, so I am bumping this. Medtactics makes a great point.

195F is ideal for GASOLINE engines. Diesel engines tend to run a little warmer than 195F.

...
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:10 PM   #27
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

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Originally Posted by Jimmy123 View Post
The state I live in doesn't have emissions inspections, only safety inspections, so as long as I do everything right I don't see why it wouldn't be road legal in my state (WV), but I know a few mechanics and could get a sticker if it really came down to it.

As far as the megasquirt 1 goes I am very intrigued to learn more about it and what all it's capable of doing for me, because that type of tuning is out of my range of knowledge, but I'm still trying to learn. From what I understand on the first conversion the guy just used VAG-COM to tune everything.

I would like to use only one ECU just to keep things as simple as possible, that's why I'd like to eliminate the Saturn PCM and just piggyback all the functions I can from the VW.
Here are some basics of how the Megasquirt operates.

http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mfuel.htm

Note: the information makes no indication that it will run on a diesel engine.

The information mentioned a 12v signal for injectors. Diesel engines seem to require much greater voltage.

It may work, but you may need higher voltage for the injectors. Don't ditch the VW ecu. It may ne required, with the megasquirt as a piggy back.

...
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Old 12-13-2016, 03:01 AM   #28
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy123 View Post
The state I live in doesn't have emissions inspections, only safety inspections, so as long as I do everything right I don't see why it wouldn't be road legal in my state (WV), but I know a few mechanics and could get a sticker if it really came down to it.

I would like to use only one ECU just to keep things as simple as possible, that's why I'd like to eliminate the Saturn PCM and just piggyback all the functions I can from the VW.
Does a VW diesel TDI mean electronically controlled diesel injectors? If so, I would presume the VW ecu is needed. The Saturn pcm wouldn't work at all in this setup. And be aware that Saturns from model year 2000+ use bcm's with Passlock theft deterrent. The bcm is 'married' to its pcm to provide GM's factory theft deterrent by disabling injector operation when activated, along with flashing lights and horn. Passlock programming in the bcm handshakes with the pcm to tell it whether or not to disable injector operation. Presuming no need for the pcm leaves the bcm that has the Passlock program as useless but it still runs most of the electrical systems except airbags and abs. The bcm drives the instrument panel so reviewing the i/p panel schematics will help you figure out what's needed and what isn't. You may consider pre 2000 Saturns to eliminate bcm issues in this conversion. As with any conversion, the details are challenging.

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Old 12-13-2016, 07:34 AM   #29
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

Yes, the injectors and a lot of other things (throttle, etc) are controlled electronically, so some kind of ECU will be necessary to run the TDI. The AHU doesn't have an immobilizer so I don't have to worry about that, either.

From what other people have said on here I will set my thermostatic fan switch to 215 instead of 190 (And of course it will be wired to come on as soon as I turn the AC on). I also plan on installing Stant in hose thermostat in the upper rad hose in order to help with warming up in the winter. I'm also planning on running a block heater on this conversion, which I though I could route to behind the fog light cover and make that easily removable so I can plug it in at night in the winter if need be.

I have all kinds of ideas for this swap and plan on posting them heard and over on my forum on TDIClub for all the people interested.

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Old 12-13-2016, 02:22 PM   #30
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

One of reason many reasons I would rather go to a full stand-alone digital display; IE - goo.gl/sCWxWZ

The PCM will not work for anything, what you are going to looking at is the junction blocks and how to convert them for use with TDI. The instrument panel will be a whole other issue, unless you use a (late) 2nd gen cluster... Even then.

Last edited by Medtactics; 12-13-2016 at 02:36 PM..

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Old 12-13-2016, 02:55 PM   #31
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy123 View Post
Yes, the injectors and a lot of other things (throttle, etc) are controlled electronically, so some kind of ECU will be necessary to run the TDI. The AHU doesn't have an immobilizer so I don't have to worry about that, either.

From what other people have said on here I will set my thermostatic fan switch to 215 instead of 190 (And of course it will be wired to come on as soon as I turn the AC on). I also plan on installing Stant in hose thermostat in the upper rad hose in order to help with warming up in the winter. I'm also planning on running a block heater on this conversion, which I though I could route to behind the fog light cover and make that easily removable so I can plug it in at night in the winter if need be.

I have all kinds of ideas for this swap and plan on posting them heard and over on my forum on TDIClub for all the people interested.
To keep this conversion as uncomplicated as possible, you're likely to use the VW engine computer since it knows how to manage electronic diesel injectors. I'm pretty sure Saturn pcm's won't run this or any other electronic diesel injector system. Two entirely different internal combustion engines with one requiring spark and the other relying on very high compression/extremely high fuel pressures from injectors to create combustion without spark. If I'm not mistaken, TDI diesel engines are more or less second or third generation diesels with first gen without electronics and solely dependent on mechanical injection pumps/valves. From curiosity of diesels, using piezoelectric injectors appears to be the latest way to fine tune crude diesel operation, improve overall running and allow more cars to use diesels compared to plain diesels.

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Old 12-13-2016, 03:24 PM   #32
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy123 View Post

As far as the megasquirt 1 goes I am very intrigued to learn more about it and what all it's capable of doing for me, because that type of tuning is out of my range of knowledge, but I'm still trying to learn. From what I understand on the first conversion the guy just used VAG-COM to tune everything.
Megasquirt is a standalone EMS. It'll run anything from a pit bike to an airplane. You could run an engine outside of a car on an engine stand if you had a proper fuel supply actually .

No splicing BS.. just run it off a megasquirt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLb3oXGx2cY

I have a tablet dash display for mine

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Old 12-13-2016, 03:38 PM   #33
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

Looking at a 3rd gen everything runs through the BCM, and I don't have a full schematics, only for the body side and that runs everything except for exterior light (is required for feed back), wipers, power windows, and radio.

Everything else seems like it will stop working (including the HVAC, AC clutch controlled by BCM too) , even the dome/courtesy lights!

If you can find under hood schematics for BCM you might be able to make work, but seems like it will take a lot wiring, with lots connections shared between the PCM and BCM for a lot of trivial things. Almost seems like an early attempt or prelude for a CAN-BUS system, beside OBD-II protocol for auto-id, project that was built, but scraped in the end... Atleast not entirely.

If you could, a '99 (SC, SL, or SW of your choice) with manual HVAC unit (dual slider/cable controlled) would be the most straight-forward and easiest to put a TDI in.

Last edited by Medtactics; 12-13-2016 at 03:48 PM..

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Old 12-13-2016, 05:35 PM   #34
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

NOTHING on my engine runs off the factory computer. Nothing.

Everything works like factory on the interior. Full HVAC, etc

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Old 12-13-2016, 06:23 PM   #35
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

You have a 2nd Gen, though.

3rd Gens are what they are advising him to avoid, because the BCM pretty much controls a majority of all components, including the PCM.

Personally, the 2nd Gen has better interior styling than 1st Gens. Using a '98-'99 may not display the odometer.

I recommend a 1997 or older for the swap. Maybe get a 1995 SC1/SC2. You can find 'em, and finding them with a blown engine/transmission shouldn't be too difficult. Look for Saturn S-Series with Automatic transmissions. The autos had a tendency to start slamming gears around the 60,000-mile mark. Repairing them wasn't difficult, but it was often and still is expensive. Cars with blown engines and transmissions can be picked up dirt cheap, compared to a running vehicle.

You get the 1st Gen body styling(which has the lowest drag coefficient of all models @ .030), and the 2nd Gen interior. A First Gen SC1, with manual options and no sunroof should give you a very low curb weight, when compared to 2nd Gen and SL/SW models of any year.

Both of these factors will be important to consider since maximizing your fuel efficiency is your goal for this project.

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Old 12-14-2016, 10:17 PM   #36
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

Ok Guys I spent about 3 hours today just copying and pasting wiring diagrams from alldata for a 1995 Saturn SL (The year I have chosen to use with this project) and filling in more gaps in my wiring diagram, which I hope to post on here one of these days, but the image is quite large and everything is clustered together, but as long as I can figure it out I guess I'm good lol.

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Old 12-15-2016, 02:30 PM   #37
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

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Ok Guys I spent about 3 hours today just copying and pasting wiring diagrams from alldata for a 1995 Saturn SL (The year I have chosen to use with this project) and filling in more gaps in my wiring diagram, which I hope to post on here one of these days, but the image is quite large and everything is clustered together, but as long as I can figure it out I guess I'm good lol.
Make sure you get the TDI ECU and the harness from donor car, there are no (cheap) aftermarket ECUs, fuel injectors operate at 80V, so no megasquirt.

Make sure the dash 100% digital if you plan on using it or use the Jetta's.

Even if MS worked there isn't enough maps to properly run a diesel without lots of sacrifices, modern TDI common rail have 300 maps or more, for multiple temperatures and operating conditions, including to pass EPA. 8 years ago, before the new tricore ECUs, the PID ECU, they had 270 maps, and then there are the ancient VP44 with 50 maps which were for the most part duplicates blended with multiple injection-ignition maps based on 10C temperature steps.

Last edited by Medtactics; 12-15-2016 at 02:44 PM..

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Old 12-15-2016, 05:43 PM   #38
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

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Originally Posted by Medtactics View Post
Make sure you get the TDI ECU and the harness from donor car, there are no (cheap) aftermarket ECUs, fuel injectors operate at 80V, so no megasquirt.

Make sure the dash 100% digital if you plan on using it or use the Jetta's.

Even if MS worked there isn't enough maps to properly run a diesel without lots of sacrifices, modern TDI common rail have 300 maps or more, for multiple temperatures and operating conditions, including to pass EPA. 8 years ago, before the new tricore ECUs, the PID ECU, they had 270 maps, and then there are the ancient VP44 with 50 maps which were for the most part duplicates blended with multiple injection-ignition maps based on 10C temperature steps.


The engine I purchased does come with the wiring harness and ECU, so that part is taken car of. I'm not sure what you mean though by make sure the dash is 100% digital, so maybe you could explain that. From what I've seen from the Saturn and VW wiring there is one wire that goes to each light on the dash (oil pressure, battery, MIL, temp, etc.) and if I, for example, splice the wire from the VW ECU that goes to the cluster for the MIL to the MIL light wire on the Saturn cluster it should work. But I guess I won't know 100% until I actually have everything hooked up and in front of me.

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Old 12-15-2016, 06:41 PM   #39
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

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The engine I purchased does come with the wiring harness and ECU, so that part is taken car of. I'm not sure what you mean though by make sure the dash is 100% digital, so maybe you could explain that. From what I've seen from the Saturn and VW wiring there is one wire that goes to each light on the dash (oil pressure, battery, MIL, temp, etc.) and if I, for example, splice the wire from the VW ECU that goes to the cluster for the MIL to the MIL light wire on the Saturn cluster it should work. But I guess I won't know 100% until I actually have everything hooked up and in front of me.
With a first gen(1991-1995 SL, 1991-1996 SC) this SHOULD be true. There will be a lot of cutting and splicing of the wires, though. Also, make sure you have the proper power coming in from the fuse panel. Those wires, in theory, shouldn't need to be molested for power to get to the cluster.

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Old 12-15-2016, 07:46 PM   #40
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Default Re: Saturn TDI

I just had a thought on how I can make my overheat light on my cluster work. I can just buy another thermostatic switch and put it right next to the other one and set the adjuster on it to 240 or so, which will trigger the overheat light. It's the easiest, simplest and cheapest solution I can think of, what do you guys think?

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