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Old 08-24-2016, 07:22 PM   #41
Saturn Night
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1995 SC2
Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

I disagree, and so does a company that specializes in exhaust systems, as well as posting chassis dynometer results. Every car tested with out cats showed performance increases, over having high flow cats or stock cats.

http://pypesexhaust.com/p-13194-dyno-tests.html

And too high of a flow muffler will rob torque. So, keeping the OEM muffler would be a better alternative for what I want to do with the car.

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-24-2016, 10:54 PM   #42
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

The dyno test is quite inconclusive, you don't want back pressure in a exhaust system, how ever what you are looking for is back pressure waves (think sound waves), what I think happened is this freeflowing muffler, even if it can flow 400cfm, Is just a POS. Making air turbulent and flow slower. Even then till I see this muffler and what research was put into it, it's a bit to easy for one to make a muffle that can flow 400cfm and call it a performance part when it does nothing.

From the collector back you want the least restrictive exhaust. Not once have mentioned the cat when describing what to aim for when building your exhaust, I only said why I have to keep mine, even then a mere .25% difference isn't much.

As for the intake, colder air=more ignition advance=etc., but still the trade off of responsiveness vs overall power. But at constant rpm/medium acceleration the CAI would outdue the shorter intake (at lower rpms), it's when you flog the engine is when you want the shorter intake when at lower RPMs where the CAIs have hesitation showing lower power results on a dyno, what I want to see is how it would act of you smoothly, but quickly, push the accelerator.

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Old 08-25-2016, 01:40 AM   #43
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

I recommend a book, by David Vizard. "How to Build Max Performance Chevy Small Blocks On a Budget".

Now, before I continue, no the Saturn 1.9L engine is NOT a Small Block Chevy. The book is aimed at V-8 SBCs, yes. However, this engineer points out many great aspects about the physics of an engine and the pitfalls/myths about the various areas people often tune on an engine.

There is a section specifically for Exhaust, like many of the other components.

A V-8, utilizing a 1 5/8" primary for each cylinder is effective anywhere from 200-375 Horsepower. Exactly half of those cylinders would make the same size primary effective from 100-187.5 HP(since the head can only achieve 191 under NA-Tuning, a 1 5/8" primary is ideal).

Now, onto the collector/secondary pipes. We know that a 1992 stock manifold will give the same power gains as an OBX Header. The OBX has a 2" collector, and as such would require a 2" secondary.

However, I have already checked the exhaust manifold gasket part # for both a 1995 manifold vs the 1992 manifold. They are the same gasket. The head pipe on a stock 1992 exhaust system is identical to the head pipe of the 1995 manifold.

Therefore, the manifold of a 1992 being equipped on a 1995 produces more power without changing any other component. The 4-2-1 scavenging effect utilizes the same 1 7/8" exhaust as the 4-1 manifold used on 1993-up Twin Cams. Meaning the stock system is more than capable of handling and responding to bolt-ons.

And if you want an ideal, near zero resistance racing exhaust, I recommend a "Pressure Wave Terminator Box", which would have minimum volume level of 8 x the volume of one cylinder. A flared outlet pipe to the muffler would be needed to reduce restrictions, and the muffler would need to flow at a rate of 2.2cfm/HP.

Unfortunately, most muffler manufacturers do not put their CFM flow rates on the muffler. They don't actually care about efficiency and balance. They care about sales revenue. A muffler that doesn't flow at 2.2cfm/HP will rob you of more power and create more backpressure than having 1/8" smaller diameter secondary pipes going to it.

4 cylinders actually do want to have some backpressure, due to the lack of total power strokes and lack of huge low-rpm torque. Too little back pressure, due to valve overlap, results in dead cylinders.

If you ever wish to test this theory, take a stock Mitsubishi Eclipse 2.0L NA variant engine and equip the Summit Racing 5" Turbo Exhaust on it. IF the engine even starts, I will be impressed(though you won't have healthy valves for very long).

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-25-2016, 01:52 AM   #44
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

I also recommend Walker for the exhaust system, due to the fact they rate their mufflers in CFM and rated pressure tests, similar to the flow tests done with cylinder heads. A restrictive stock muffler will be seen by the engine as a smaller section of tailpipe, essentially. Too free-flowing of a muffler will result in the engine "seeing" a larger section of pipe.

In both scenarios, too little or too large will adversely affect the engine performance much greater than the difference between 1/8" of tail pipe.

...
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Old 08-25-2016, 04:49 AM   #45
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Correction. Only the gasket is the same. Walker's website does show a different head pipe for 1992 1.9L Twin Cams.

Inlet diameter of the converter of a 1995 Twin Cam Exhaust is 2.125" off the head pipe, and a 2.5" outlet. Surprisingly, the 1992 head pipe was actually more restrictive with an outlet of 2.125" on the cat.

Inlet diameter on the stock exhaust to muffler is only 1 3/4". Outlet is 1 7/8" on both.

However, pipe diameter is irrelevant if the muffler doesn't flow within the desired CFM.

The 2" OBX would actually be a smaller secondary to cat inlet, being only 2" on either exhaust system. So, the fact that it improves performance alone, is a clear cut example of exhaust pipe diameter being nearly irrelevant to the power O looking to build.

Only the main components: Manifold, Catalytic Converter, and Muffler Flow are where the focus needs to lie, due to the fact that the stock pipes can handle the flow perfectly fine.

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-25-2016, 10:34 AM   #46
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Quite intresting, as for the 2.0L Mitsubishi your warping the valves with a dose of cool air on a exhaust that big.

The sizing reference is just collector back for what I was talking about, obviously you want close to port size header (depending on certain factors), any bigger you can get backflow.

This were again you want back pressure waves at the collector, past that you want a free flowing well designed system.

Last edited by Medtactics; 08-25-2016 at 10:43 AM..

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Old 08-26-2016, 01:16 PM   #47
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

You want a free flowing, well designed system that will exit through the muffler at the correct CFM. Stock engines can run up to 3psi of backpressure and that is normal. A full race engine wants near zero psi of backpressure. A street engine will want 1-2psi of back pressure.

This is simply physics. At low engine speeds and WOT, the air velocity and volume are very low. Volumetric efficiency is not going to even be close to 100%. Backpressure actually keeps some exhaust gases from exiting the cylinder. While you never want a lot of exhaust gas mixing with your intake charge, exhaust gas still contains a small amount of unburned fuel and since it has mass, it takes up space in the cylinder, which can allow for the cylinder to properly pressurize on the compression stroke at part throttle.

To help with fuel economy of this phenomenon, Ford actually put two spark plugs in their 2.5L Ranger engine, during the 1990s. There was a separate coil pack, to control the exhaust stroke plugs, which would fire on the exhaust stroke to help burn remaining fuel in the cylinder(that was held there by backpressure). This gave the downward motion of the next intake stroke a slight boost in velocity.

A near zero backpressure exhaust on a street engine would actually cost you fuel efficiency, due to the enriched fuel mixture of the incoming air charge not being properly atomized, to prevent detonation in the cylinder.

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-26-2016, 01:28 PM   #48
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

A lot of the physics behind engines, amd the way the ECMs are controlled, are exactly why SPR only netted 150HP out of their 1.9L Twin Cam, even after a full bottom end balance, a shaved and ported cylinder head, and retimed camshafts. They removed the EGR and purge canister.

Adding just the bolt-ons would have gotten them to almost 145 HP, alone. Which means had they left the EGR and Purge Canister on the vehicle, they may have netted more power, possibly closer to the 160 mark.

The stock ECM will automatically retard ignition timing and lean the air fuel ratio, when the EGR is determined to be defective or not functional(block-off plates). I know this, because my Iron Duke has a bad EGR(ALL Iron Dukes have defective EGRs). Disabling the Purge Canister takes away valuable fuel vapors from being pulled into the intake charge, as well.

Gasoline, as a liquid, doesn't burn. Only in vapor form. Now, even with fuel injection, the fuel doesn't always properly atomized. However, mixing a trace amount of fuel vapors prior to adding the liquid fuel spray directly into the port, gives you a partially mixed intake charge and will compensate for that discrepancy. Disconnecting or removing it, makes the engine solely rely only on the fuel spray from the injectors, which can result in improper burn or incomplete burn. This results in vibration and power loss.

A definite oversight, since they are not allowed to change the ECM out due to the racing class rules.

So, following the builds and suggestions of other people is not always the best choices. Stock OBD-I controllers were fairly responsive to bolt-ons, but bypassing various sensors/items, would cause performance loses.

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-27-2016, 12:44 AM   #49
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

I have planned on converting to fuel vapor, I still might, but not as full fledged as originally planned. When I have the tank down, or flat out replace it with full aftermarket setup. I plan on deleting the solenoid, 1/4in (don't really know the ID but it's to small) line, and can. Rerun line with 3/4 to 1 ID from the can inlet hose to intake and install breather filter with check valve on tank.

Maybe if I get a full out off-road vehicle (gotta get that 400mpg in the apocalypse, that was with 350 V8 in a 2.5ton car with horrendous aerodynamics) I'll do it properly with full intake ducting through custom 1/4in thick reinforced heated fuel cell with custom canisters to store fuel vapors at various points along intake much like the tom ogle build. The only trouble is how to pressurize the tank... I think the heaters ought to be enough.


As for each, my answer is... pots, a variable resistor on the IACT and MAP sensor to control all aspects of ignition, to gain a little more a Apexi Neo will be needed to modify fuel trim and you have your self a full $500+ ecu for $100.

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Old 08-27-2016, 10:23 AM   #50
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

http://rexresearch.com/yunick/yunick.htm

Google search Smokey Yunick, and you will find a legendary Pontiac Fiero. This particular Fiero has 0-60 in under 6 seconds, 250+ HP, over 240 ft-lbs of Torque, averages over 50 miles per gallon, and it does all of that with no emissions controls, no electronics, no catalytic converters, AND still passes emissions with the 2.5L Iron Duke. And he did this in 1984, during the oil embargoes/fuel crunches that led to foreign imports starting to beat the American automakers in sales, with their smaller, more efficient vehicles.

Fuel Vapor is the route to go. Smokey Yunick's patent licenses have all expired. His designs are public information.

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-27-2016, 11:19 AM   #51
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Same with pogue carburetor, it expired a few years ago, was installed on tanks in the desert to chase Rommel's forces with one-two fill ups when the distance they covered would have required at the least five rumer has it. The only trouble with is that fuel vapor is rather unstable for boost application, but high power NA builds can run off it easy.

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Old 08-27-2016, 05:07 PM   #52
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

So, just make sure to stay away from boost, amd you are golden. Plus, the lack of a turbo charger or a super charger frees up vital engine bay space and helps keep extra weight off the vehicle.

I have heard of guys using their heater core lines to heat fuel on stock carburetor induction systems, and average over 50-60mpg, as well. However, some of these guys did not think to regulate the fuel pressure, and a single backfire was quite destructive.

But, yes, if you have the tools, the knowledge, and the time, absolutely do it. The Feds amd the EPA will hate you, because you won't have to fill up every 400 miles, and that is less tax revenue in their pockets.

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-28-2016, 11:58 PM   #53
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

It would be fun going to them shell eco marathon events and wipe everyone's smug look off when a non-specilized 1.5ton production car literally racing the track they use (average speed is 15mph) and beat over 3/4 of the competition with zero gas saving techniques... great now I'm going to get no sleep developing it in my head all over again.

Fuel vapor is extremely simple, as simple as a steam engine. Just more complex fuel making process and mechanical means of transferring power.

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Old 08-30-2016, 04:46 PM   #54
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

I just looked up those Shell Eco Marathon events. A Smokey Yunick Fiero would eat those guys for breakfast. I would burst out laughing, to see a regular production vehicle toast all those weird looking prototypes.

I noticed they only do those in other countries. Looks like America doesn't care, because they can't stand to profit.

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 09-04-2016, 02:00 AM   #55
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Doing some fact checking on my Exhaust header swap GM changed the size of the O2 sensor in 1993.

So, I can use the 1992 Twin Cam factory header, however this will require the use of Saturn PN 21020136 for the O2 sensor, which has a 3/4" diameter threading.

The 1995 Twin Cam manifold uses a 7/8" thread diameter and larger bung. Saturn PN 21025117.

So, here is my question. Will the 1992 SC oxygen sensor send the correct voltage to the 1995 Engine Control Module, for correct air/fuel ratio?

I know they run on a voltage signal, however, there is nothing I can find that indicates the resistance of materials in the O2 sensor or whether different years will read differently.

And since I will probably go with a new O2 sensor on this change, what is the recommended brand? I have found Walker males one, NGK, Delphi, AC Delco, Bosch, Denso, and Spectra Premium.

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 09-04-2016, 07:44 AM   #56
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Oldnuc claims there's a difference, though I never had a CEL with a '96 SC2 that came with the pre-cat from California emission's. Took the pre-cat manifold & downpipe off, put the header & downpipe on, plugged the stock '92 style O2 sensor into the '96 harness.

If you do get a '91-'94 to work on keep in mind that the A/C compressor plug is the same as the O2 sensor plug, I mixed 'em up on a '93 SL2 but that was my first major work of any kind (5spd swap to a 100% dead automatic) and spent over a week arguing with the Chilton's manual (the "good" '91-'98 one too ) over "if it's harder than an oil change take it to an ASE certified mechanic."

I believe Bosch and Denso direct fit's are the recommended brands. May not matter too much as long as it's a "direct fit" rather than "universal fit" that requires you to be a 100% perfect solderer.

...
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Old 09-04-2016, 07:41 PM   #57
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Thanks for the update. My 1995 is OBD-I, and yours is OBD-II, so the 1992 O2 sensor should work. Bosch is usually what I go with in terms of brand, myself. I am not a Bosch fan, myself, because a lot of their stuff was built specifically fro Chrysler and Chryslers are straight junk.

But, I haven't really had any issues with their O2 sensors.

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
Mechanic: I can't fix stupid, but I can fix what stupid does.

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Old 09-05-2016, 06:06 PM   #58
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

I have found another question for the modifications to my 1995 SC2.

Which year of manual rack and pinion assembly can be used as a Power Steering Rack delete?

I checked the assembly diagrams from this website, and they show to only fit 1995

http://www.wholesalegmpartsonline.co...ukey_make=1031

When I checked for used parts interchange, the DOHC shows it only comes in Power Steering for that year.

I have also read that the change to steering ratio can deploy the air bags(which I plan on disabling anyway after inspection, but I am not exactly wanting a blown up steering wheel.)

If the assemblies are year specific, what are the differences from an older Saturn year to the 1995 SC2 package?

Aside from reducing the weight of the front end, I prefer the feel of manual rack and pinion over power-assisted systems, and obviously their would be a very minute gain to both horsepower and fuel economy.

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 09-05-2016, 06:26 PM   #59
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Not many people have done it and it "doesn't work" all years because the U-joint connecting the rack to the column is different for the manual racks. Only reason I wasn't highly annoyed (NONE of the "guides" mentioned this at the time) was because the donor and receiver cars were about 5ft apart.

1st gen SC2's have the quickest ratio rack from the factory, it'd be a smarter idea to de-power your current rack rather than swap to a manual. Guide: https://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/depower.php?x=1

As your DOHC is still mostly 1st gen you should be able to get a no PS no A/C belt from a SOHC and delete both systems without the hassle 2nd and 3rd gens have.

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Old 09-06-2016, 12:01 AM   #60
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by fetchitfido View Post
Not many people have done it and it "doesn't work" all years because the U-joint connecting the rack to the column is different for the manual racks. Only reason I wasn't highly annoyed (NONE of the "guides" mentioned this at the time) was because the donor and receiver cars were about 5ft apart.

1st gen SC2's have the quickest ratio rack from the factory, it'd be a smarter idea to de-power your current rack rather than swap to a manual. Guide: https://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/depower.php?x=1

As your DOHC is still mostly 1st gen you should be able to get a no PS no A/C belt from a SOHC and delete both systems without the hassle 2nd and 3rd gens have.
Ok. Before I get into the entire rack and pinion apart. Here is my question, couldn't the intermediate shaft, from the column-to-rack be swapped with a complete unit?

The steering column, itself, is interchangeable with non-power assisted units provided that one has the key to the column, of course. The rack mounts on the subframe, and not the body.

I can definitely tear a perfectly good rack and pinion apart. Once those seals are removed from the actual rack inside, it would perform just like a manual unit, correct?

And I will be ok on my A/C system. It has already been removed from the vehicle. Currently running a non-A/C belt.

Gonna look at modifying my stock air cleaner. If I can find a way to turn it upside down, near the upper core support, it would function similar to a RAM AIR.

Maybe I will try the air box off of a 2200 SFI J-Body. Gonna need a tape measure though.

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
Mechanic: I can't fix stupid, but I can fix what stupid does.

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