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Old 08-20-2016, 04:05 AM   #21
Saturn Night
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

High 12s, on only 290whp? So, that would put you around about say 370 at the crank?

My comment about the 8,000rpm was in reference to a fully built engine, with forged internals, lightweight/precision balanced crank, and a valve train that can handle that kind of abuse.

...
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Old 08-20-2016, 07:31 AM   #22
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
High 12s, on only 290whp? So, that would put you around about say 370 at the crank?

My comment about the 8,000rpm was in reference to a fully built engine, with forged internals, lightweight/precision balanced crank, and a valve train that can handle that kind of abuse.
Would depend on the transmission type, Automatic I would find that number believable, although a bit high, a manual would be around 315-330 at crank.

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Old 08-20-2016, 10:43 AM   #23
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

I don't really care how much horsepower it makes at the crank, wheel horsepower is what move the car on the ground. I'm not a good drag racing driving, so I don't care about the ET time, nor the reaction time. I only care about trap speed, ie what the car can do. My goal of 110mph was met that night, I was happy.

The high 12's belong to my friend's minivan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LydMrJBAobM

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Old 08-20-2016, 01:11 PM   #24
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Ok. So you were in the far lane, correct? And that was a MINIVAN! Was it a Dodge Caravan? The video wasn't the clearest, but it looked like one of them old 1980s Caravans, like my dad used to own.

Anyway, back on topic. Who actually has dyno tests to show a decent 140 HP build on these engines?

...
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Old 08-20-2016, 06:17 PM   #25
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Probably Evilplastic has the best 'known' build. evilplastic.com

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Old 08-20-2016, 08:06 PM   #26
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn Night View Post
Ok. So you were in the far lane, correct? And that was a MINIVAN! Was it a Dodge Caravan? The video wasn't the clearest, but it looked like one of them old 1980s Caravans, like my dad used to own.
Yes, GLH was in the far lane.

Yes, 88 Caravan, 2.4L turbo swap, dynoed 360whp.
[/URL]

What do you need a clear picture of? Between my friend and I, we have lots of pictures.

...
85 GLH 290whp. http://www.saturnfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215679
94 855 389xxx miles and climbing.
00 Insight 50mpg++

Last edited by amazinghl; 08-20-2016 at 08:18 PM..

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Old 08-21-2016, 03:33 AM   #27
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Ok. I read over evilplastic.com, for the daily-driver build on his 94 SC model.

If his dyno claims are correct, minus the A/C, using a stock 92 Exhaust manifold from the twin cam, a cold air intake, and WITH a catalytic converter on the exhaust, this engine could get near the 150HP mark.

The average amount of power robbed from the A/C compressor is about 4-5 HP, alone.

I noticed only the intake seemed to reduce his low-end torque, so essentially, I should be able to get where I want to be with only modifications to the exhaust. That should definitely free up some extra MPG, as well. (I know as soon as my inspection is passed, that converter is being replaced with a straight pipe.) The stock muffler should be more than adequate to maintain the back pressure I would need for everyday driving.

Worked like a charm on my Grand Am Quad engine.

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-21-2016, 03:38 AM   #28
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Talk about luck. I have two salvage yards, within 50 miles, that have a slew of those 92 Exhaust Manifolds. I can pick one up for between $50-75. How much do the after market headers run, again?

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-21-2016, 04:16 AM   #29
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

When I buy the exhaust manifold gasket, do I buy the gasket for the 1992 Manifold, or the 95 Cylinder head?

Also, CAI kits reduce low end and aren't really feasible in terms of cost/labor, in comparison to the factory assembly for anything on the lighter build side. Here is my question:

There is a plastic runner that goes far into the bottom of the box(the inlet tube with the IAT sensor). If I were to cut that closer to the IAT, would that increase air volume flowing through the unit?

And that plastic box sitting above the cooling fan that feeds into the left side of the air cleaner box. What is its purpose? Couldn't I just remove that, entirely and let air flow through that little hole, too? These are both prior to the throttle body, so it is not a vacuum leak, or is it better to remove it and plug the hole?

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
Mechanic: I can't fix stupid, but I can fix what stupid does.

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Old 08-21-2016, 04:18 AM   #30
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Advance Auto Parts can get the Spectre brand high flow air cleaner, for the stock box, as well. They are made with the same type of filtration gauze as the K&N, but you don't get a 1 million mile warranty, and they are reusable. You clean them with the same kit as a K&N. So, the $25.99 is much more attractive than the price of a K&N brand.

This should be more than sufficient for where I want this engine to be at, in terms of performance, yes?

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-21-2016, 08:05 AM   #31
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

about $200 for aftermarket OBX, Avoid straight pipe as much as possible, Avoid any air filter (especially K&N, quality has dropped in recent years) and get a R2C filter, they are currently the best filter in the world. They are reusable and cleanable (with just compressed air, or you can clean with water) and they don't require grease, they are made from a synthetic media. rated with a 99.7% efficiency at 1600CFM on their smallest filter, granted these were designed for turbo applications in mind, not a little 300CFM (@ about 6750RPM) 1.9L engine. You can look at the them here

The black box on the radiator is a resonator (it also collects heat and hot air), remove it and seal the hole (used Gorilla tape on both sides), as for the useless tube deal in the air box I cut mine up and moved the AICT sensor to the opposite side so it stops picking up radiant heat, also converted it to brass, ill take a picture to show what I did when I get my Note 7 on the 22nd, other phone went into the drink.

Although I think I'll buy a AEM intake pipe and make a custom box.

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Old 08-21-2016, 11:50 AM   #32
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Why would I want to leave the converter on? They clog up the exhaust and I am burning oil about 2,500rpm. That thing will prematurely clog up.

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-21-2016, 11:54 AM   #33
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

When it comes to intake and exhaust, engines operate most efficiently with the least amount of resistance on both.

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-21-2016, 04:59 PM   #34
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

huh, double post, that's a first.

Last edited by Medtactics; 08-21-2016 at 05:07 PM..

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Old 08-21-2016, 05:05 PM   #35
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Straight pipe increases resistance, Intake side is short enough and doesn't get dirty so it doesn't matter as much, and quality pipes are polished to boot too.

Exhaust side is a different story.

Although if you don't plan on going to events then it won't matter as much if you get rid of the cat, I on the other hand need it (even if my state doesn't do smog checks), especially when I get pulled over (and when out of state). Its also something that needs to be on the car to compete in certain classes.

Also Saturn engines should not be burning oil, mine doesn't granted its been ran with high end oil, Amsoil, its whole life, as per a CAT engineer's request/recommendation.

Last edited by Medtactics; 08-21-2016 at 05:14 PM..

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Old 08-21-2016, 09:15 PM   #36
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

About the only events I would ever plan on going to are local car shows, and despite my peeling clear coat, just show off the car for its overall condition. For the mileage of this car, it is in relatively great overall shape. I may also run a few passes at Quaker City Raceway with it, which they don't car if you remove your converter. They check to make sure you aren't leaking fluids and that the fuel lines are safely routed, when they inspect under the hood. Ohio State Patrol rarely, if ever, actually check a vehicle for its converter when they stop you for a traffic violation. Ohio really doesn't enforce the 1990 Clean Air Act that was signed into federal law, like they should.


Yes, I know the engine is not supposed to burn oil. My engine probably needs quite a good cleaning, a piston soak, or possibly a complete teardown and rebuild with holes drilled in the pistons.

I am confused as to how a straight pipe increases resistance greater than the resistance of a converter, on the exhaust. The exhaust is likely a stock 1.75", which would be more than sufficient for maintaining velocity on a 124hp engine. It may be a little restrictive above 150-160hp, though. That would be more related to the volume of air coming out of the engine being squeezed into a little tiny pipe diameter.

All in all, I am looking to build +15hp and about +17 ft-lbs of Tq. Given the stock cam tuning, I will likely need to go for +20hp, to get the Tq gain I am looking for.

Removal of the A/C would give about 4hp, on average. The exhaust manifold should bring in about another 5hp. The stock air box already flows well enough for what I am looking to do, so a simple air filter change should net me maybe 3hp. With removal of the catalytic converter, I am fairly confident I would be able to get the 5-7hp I would need, to hit my goal for both HP and Tq, though the low end response should drop a little from the high end gains.

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-21-2016, 09:53 PM   #37
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Stock exhaust 1 7/8in ID which is just enough for 124HP (you can find my thread on it in the general section, 20k garage project), 2in ID is good up to 140HP.

Straight pipe is a physics question, what does more surface area do? increase friction, increased friction lead to more restrictive exhaust. That is why street rods run (or try to depending on vehicle type) at least two mufflers with equal lengths of straight pipe between everything from the collector back.

If you want the best performance install a diverter right behind the collector (what I want to do) or just run with a open collector (great way to attract unwanted attention, but the weight savings).

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Old 08-23-2016, 07:21 AM   #38
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Our stock exhaust can flow up to 275cfm, the cylinder head can only flow under perfect conditions at 133cfm.

The stock head can ideally flow with enough air, to make 191 naturally-aspirated horsepower. The stock tuning is only 124hp, or about 65% of the head's potential. The exhaust valves, naturally being smaller, are going to generate more velocity, than the intake charge in.

A 2" Borla Cat-Back exhaust only adds 8hp with an OBX header. This would put flow efficiency at about 70%. Mind you, this is 8hp WITH a catalyst, which is a mesh screen and a design that widens(less velocity)and then to the outlet which is narrow(increasing velocity). The fact that the cat is mid-section in the exhaust, would result in turbulence, which is bad.

Running a stock exhaust, with a straight pipe is actually more efficient, because the surface area inside the catalytic converter will always be more that the surface area of a straight pipe. The exhaust flow would remain at a more constant temperature decrease and velocity decrease without the converter, as well. Combined with a stock '92 manifold, the scavenging effect would actually be quite balanced, at consistent engines speeds(which improves fuel economy), as opposed to the converter causing drastic reductions in velocity, and then reducing the surface area and making the air quite turbulent in the outlet pipe.

A stock exhaust WITH a converter may only handle 124hp, but without a converter, it would be more than sufficient to handle any bolt-on performance part.

...
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1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-23-2016, 07:30 AM   #39
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

And by the way, that air filter is one impressive design. It may be quite beneficial to add, later on. Not sure if I want it to be CAI, or go with the short ram runners.

CAI will drop the low-end, slightly, due to low velocity. The colder air results in a richer mixture, so fuel economy is sacrificed, but you can gain up to probably 10hp from that setup, alone.

A short ram intake would improve the low end, due to less time for air to reach the manifold, but the total gain at peak HP would also be lower. The warmer air charge has better atomization properties though, which improves overall fuel economy. And a 1600cfm air filter, only operating at a peak of 133cfm wouldn't even come close to pushing that filter.

Maybe I will slap some Thundervolt 8.2mm wires on it. They worked great on the Camaro 3.1L. Then again, I had a 50,000 volt Accel coil powering them, and not the stock 35,000 volt coil

...
1991 Pontiac Grand Am @ 140k - More rust than paint & no leaks
1995 Saturn SC2 @ 181k - 17.2538 @ 77.91mph w/Stock TB
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Old 08-24-2016, 12:38 AM   #40
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Default Re: Minor Street Build Questions

Engine intake is 204 CFM, exhaust is about 250 CFM; which is at the edge of what 1 7/8 pipe can handle effectively. VE is .9 which is why stage 1 bolt-ons are not effective.

Also this is no V8, it's a I4 with a factory stroker kit. It's pistons are pushing 80+fts @6000RPM which is quite extreme (this is why you can't run dyno oil without ruining the pistions). Not to mention its anomalous 45+ deg. Ignition advance which all points to a rather efficient motor that responds extremely well to stage 2/3 kits more effectively then your average small block.

As for the exhaust, straight pipe introduces turbulence, this why resonators/mufflers are installed. They allow the turbulent exhaust to slow, spread out, and stabilize before recollocting and exiting at a faster velocity in a properly well designed muffler.

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