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Old 05-20-2015, 12:37 PM   #1
cgc
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Default 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Ok, so this is my first post and honestly, I've joined out of desperation...or better yet, frustration.

Outlook with a 3.6 and 105K on the clock. Car started throwing a CEL some time ago for a misfire, on cyl 1 or 2 (can't recall). So I figured since I was going to have the intake off and the milage I'd just go ahead and resplce all of the plugs and coil packs.
Simple enough...car ran great for about 4-6 weeks....then you could feel it start missing from time to time.

Ran codes...and received the misfire codes along with codes indicating the two pre-cats were not working efficiently. Picked up two Pre-cats from RockAuto and replaced them this past weekend (wasn't as bad as I was expecting).

Car is still misfiring. It is random cylinders that are reporting the misfire. First it was 2, 4 and 6. Then the last time I scanned it, 1 and 5 were recording the misfire.

I've read there is an issue with excessive carbon build up....but could this really be the case? Is it possible that it's the ECM (or Ignition Control Module)?
I picked up a Haynes manual on the GMC Acadia and haven't been overly impressed with it in this instance.


ANY constructive feed back would be more than welcome. I really would prefer not to have to take it to a shop cause I'm fairly good at twisting some wrenches....but if it gets to the point I'm having to pull a head it may just go to a shop...then up for sale.

Feedback?

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Old 05-21-2015, 08:18 AM   #2
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

In the event someone is searching and runs across this thread here is an update:

After looking at the car last night, I went ahead and had it towed to the GM dealership (gotta love the road hazard insurance for $3 every 6 months for free towing to a shop).
They are saying that when the pre-cats fell apart that it apparently pushed some garbage down into the Y-Pipe. I'm going to call and confirm this with them this morning as they only left me a voice mail. I've not been able to run the car long enough to see if it was still in fact mis-firing...OR....if it's "chugging" because of the blockage.

I'll try to keep this post updated in spite of no feedback and over 100+ reads.

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Old 05-22-2015, 08:30 AM   #3
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Went to the dealership and they pulled the car around driving it with no issues. Now, it sounded like a old shot out logging truck because they had the Y-pipe disconnected from the cat under the passenger compartment.....but it drove.

I asked them if they could just leave it the way it is so I could avoid the towing costs, and they did.

Drove it home with little issue. It looked like they disconnected the battery because the clock and everything was reset. It drove fine for the most part...there were little things that seemed "odd", but right now I'm attributing this to the car basically running open exhaust and the ECU being reset.

I'm going to order the new cat from RockAuto ($130 vs from GM for $500+). Should be a pretty strait forward install and much easier than the pre-cats which those really weren't too bad anyways.

Will update after install.

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Old 05-22-2015, 01:41 PM   #4
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

I've had to replace my bank 2, i think, and the cat under the passenger side. It was from a misfire that I took too long to fixed it messed up my bank 2 cat which sent a bunch of crap to my other cat. Only issue I had with replacing them was trying to get a stuck bolt out of the flex pipe.

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Old 05-22-2015, 03:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penrod View Post
I've had to replace my bank 2, i think, and the cat under the passenger side. It was from a misfire that I took too long to fixed it messed up my bank 2 cat which sent a bunch of crap to my other cat. Only issue I had with replacing them was trying to get a stuck bolt out of the flex pipe.
Yeah, there were two bolts on the cat against the firewall that I had to use a bolt extractor on...other than that, if I hadn't of had a bolt cross thread on me, I would have had both in and out in about 4 hrs. It really wasn't bad...

I was honestly worried about it cause my father in law had read some article or video where the person said the cat against the firewall was nearly impossible to get out.
It was honestly the easiest of the two pre-cats.

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Old 06-04-2015, 07:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Update -
Received the catalytic converter that is under the passenger compartment last week then had to go out of town. Got back late Tuesday so after I got home from work Wed I pulled the car in the garage and replaced the cat. Very strait forward and probably took about 30 minutes of total work time...hardest part was trying to get everything pulled back into place and I had one nut that was a bit of a PITA to thread.

Fired it up and the car sounded as good as a new car again...super quiet....quieter than it's ever been since we've owned it.
That was the good news.

Bad news is when I took it for a drive I could tell it was still misfiring....and actually the CEL started flashing even before I was 1/4 mile from the house.

Plugged up the code scanner and pulled:
P0300
P0302
P0304
P0306

So I'm back in the same position I was in before I pulled all three cats. Random misfires from cyl 2, 4 & 6.

I thought maybe I jacked something up when I put new plugs/coil, but the car ran great for about 6 weeks...and if anything I would have thought maybe the gasket wasn't seated right for the upper intake. But I would would think I would be getting an error about unmetered air, or something (anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

At this point I'm back to the ignition module being the problem.

The saga continues.

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Old 06-04-2015, 05:52 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Have you looked at all the wires to see if something chaffed or broke? I had a cousin that ran into a misfire type issue and come to find out a squirrel or something chewed through a wire. I just replaced all the spark plugs and ignition coils in my wife Saturn for a misfire and everything runs great right now. Hopefully, you find out what the issue is soon.

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Old 06-04-2015, 09:18 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

since you have an 09 I would suspect you have a s.i.d.i injected engine...if it is the valves are probably got gobbs of carbon on them causeing the misfires..pull the plentum off and look at the valves

...
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Old 06-05-2015, 07:51 AM   #9
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penrod View Post
Have you looked at all the wires to see if something chaffed or broke? I had a cousin that ran into a misfire type issue and come to find out a squirrel or something chewed through a wire. I just replaced all the spark plugs and ignition coils in my wife Saturn for a misfire and everything runs great right now. Hopefully, you find out what the issue is soon.
I'm going to retrace my steps on the coil/plug install and check all wires. Someone from another board also said it sounds like a possible timing chain issue....which the car was at the dealership with a recall concerning the timing chain. The only "but" about that was it at one point was throwing codes on other cyl from the other bank.
So we'll see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by satlite440 View Post
since you have an 09 I would suspect you have a s.i.d.i injected engine...if it is the valves are probably got gobbs of carbon on them causeing the misfires..pull the plentum off and look at the valves
Thats something else I may check. My fear is I don't want to run the car very long with it misfiring and jack up the cats again. It wasn't the $2700 that GM was wanting to charge me to replace them....but I have better things to spend $600 on, ya know


Thanks for all the feed back. We'll see what happens.

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Old 06-08-2015, 08:31 AM   #10
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Got under the hood this weekend to go over my work from the coil/plug install. Checked to see if there were any leaks around the intake – although I would think I would be throwing some type of unmetered air error as opposed or in addition to the misfire errors.

I even had my father in law look at it to just have a second pair of eyes in case I missed something as well.

After, I started the car up and it started missing right away. It would smooth out a bit with some RPMs, but as soon as you let off the gas it would go back to sputtering and die. The one thing we did notice was after only about 30 seconds of run time…the catalytic converter closest to the radiator was glowing red.

At this point I don’t believe it’s stuck valves because it wouldn’t be dumping fuel into the exhaust (where it’s burning it up). It’s also more than likely not a injector or fuel issue since again, the car is dumping fuel into the exhaust.

So, in my mind – And I’m always open to suggestions or other lines of thought – it’s either a timing issue, or an issue with the Processor controlling the firing of the 2, 4, 6 cylinders?

If it’s a timing issue – I’m suspecting that the dealership F’d something up when I had it in for a bunch of recalls which including a timing chain/gear issue.
If it’s the processor – Replacement, I guess.

Probably going to have it towed back to the dealership this evening unless I have some revolution.

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Old 06-12-2015, 09:10 AM   #11
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Well, the car as been at the dealership now for a day and they just called my wife. Not sure why they called her considering I left my phone number and they've always called me in the past.

Not really sure what's going on at this point because:
1. They called her and said the car was ready when they're supposed to diagnose and call us before they complete repairs.
2. My wife said the rep stated something about spark plugs and internal damage to the engine.
3. My wife then said the rep started mumbling about, "wait, I don't think it's ready" or wasn't our car that he was talking about.



So, I told her if they call her back to have the dealership call me....


Edit.....
As I was typing this, my wife called back. She said the Service Rep left her a voice mail saying something about the car has internal damage but that it would be Monday before they would call us back.

I attempted to call the Service Rep back to get an understanding of what the heck is going on cause I'm a bit confused at this point. Unfortunately, the rep that called was on another line so I'll call back here shortly and update.



ANYONE correct me if I'm wrong....but I'm trying to understand how I go from having a random misfires in the front bank (2, 4, 6 cyl) to having internal damage in the engine?
I'm honestly a bit concerned because I had the car taken in for a bunch of recalls (including a timing chain issue) not too long before we started having this misfire issue. Could this possible all be the ripple effect of that? It was stumbling a bit before the recall was taken care of....now I'm wondering if this is all a result of this point.

Thoughts on that?

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Old 06-12-2015, 09:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

to help put you mind somewhat at ease..im a caddy dealer tec and have no vested intrest in your issue..i have done many sets of timming chains on 2.4L and 3.6L engines..if one of the chains is 1 tooth off it will set a coralation code for bank 1 or bank 2 unless it's the primary chain.then it would set a coralation code for both banks..with out your vin I don't know if it is a s.i.d.i for sure but im guessing it is...from the bank 2 cat glowing I would suspect one of the direct injectors has failed and leaking...the real driveablity guy should do an afit test on the fuel system to see whats up with the flow rates...unfortunately doing the direct injectors is a labor intensive job...replaceing just 1 injector can still be done but I have noticed that it can cause an imbalance due to low flow rates in the remaining 5 injectors..and more than a few times we have had to replace the remaing 5 to correct this issue while under warrenty... while it is possible there is valve damage due to this..i would request they do a leakdown test on the suspect cyclinder..as any leakdown over 20% will make a miss you can feel slightly.25 to 35% will be a very noticeable miss at idle but will be ok at rpm's over 1200 due to the other 5 cyclinders compensating for the weak hole..anything over 40 is a dead miss at all speeds....if you have been to this dealer a few times it is time to talk 1 on 1 with the sevice manager or the fixed operations manager and review what has been done how we got here and that they put the master tec or lead tec on it so that the issue is resolved....plugged cats from a lean miss fire could burn a valve over time...I would be interested to know what the long and short term fuel trim numbers were and if they were positive or negative..good luck and keep us posted

...
shure you can trust the government,just ask us indians all about it...

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Old 06-16-2015, 03:41 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Greatly, greatly appreciate the feed back.

I'm going to call the service writer on the way home to see what the deal is.

I'll certainly update the post cause after all the searching I've done on this issue, I've found little to no help on this. So, I'm trying to document as best I can so that IF someone else runs into the same issue....this may help.

Again, satilite440 - I appreciate the feedback

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Old 07-02-2015, 09:59 AM   #14
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

OK –
I apologize for the late update.

So, after a bit of a cluster at the dealership (won’t bore you with that), I spoke with the service rep I’ve been dealing with all along. It was stated that they were afraid that there was internal engine damage at this point and the starter was burned up.

Both of these caught me completely off guard since:
1. I never had any problems with the starter.
2. I’ve never had problems with any knocking, or odd noises coming from the engine once the cats were replaced.
3. I’ve never lost oil pressure.

So after I spoke with the service rep on the phone I went up to the dealership after work to speak with him
I “expressed my concern” that they claimed the starter was bad….and explained that it was more than likely the battery that was going dead since I haven’t been able to drive it in almost 2 months. Not much response from him on this.
I also explained to him that I was beyond frustrated that we keep fixing (or creating) secondary issues and not once that I’ve seen, has anyone attempted to address WHY the car is misfiring.
I understand the first time it was up there that the two pre-cats needed to be replaced. The second time, we needed to replace the primary cat but when the mid pipe was disconnected from the cat the car ran, but ZERO work was done to try and diagnose any misfire (which is why I’ve been bringing it up there).

I expressed to the rep that I’m a bit “concerned” that we originally brought the car up there with probably a minor issue….now he’s saying there is internal damage? I also said that outside of the misfire, I’ve never had any issues with the car. Now, I’ve got internal damage? At that point, I informed him that if that is the case…..it’s not going to be good.
So, I told him that I would look at the starter and replace it myself (they wanted over $300….part was $60 - $120) and then I was going to take it somewhere else to have it looked at.

I towed the car home and put a battery charger on it in the morning and when I get home – battery is charged and car turns over just fine. I shut it down right away because IF there is any internal damage at this point, I’m trying NOT to cause any more.

After that, I had the car towed to another local shop recommended by a couple of people. They looked at it (said the battery was dead and had to charge it to start it….so much for that starter being burned out) and said it was knocking and seems as though the “motor is shot”.

How much to replace you asked? Well, apparently (and I haven’t looked yet) they don’t have a remanufactured 3.6 out there (what?) but…..you ready?
$8,000 (including labor)

I owe $12K on this car right now….lol.

I asked the last shop to push it aside while I decide what I’m going to do with it.
I’ve thought about stripping it and selling it for parts but I really don’t think I’ll get anywhere near what the payoff is on this. This whole thing is just bizarre to me. I’ve had many cars….I’ve many cars that have gone WELL over 100K. But I’ve never had a motor go out on me – especially with 105K (or 6) on the clock.

I’ve never been in this position, so I’m trying to think of what I’m going to do at this point. If I can find a motor to pull out of a totaled Outlook (Acadia, Etc), I “might” replace the motor…..but $8K is NOT an option.

So there you have it ladies and gentlemen. It seems we will NEVER know what caused the misfire….but now I’ve got a shot motor.

Please excuse any spelling or grammatical errors. Not really interested or in the mood to proof read this crap.

I guess I can update with what ultimately happens with this car….but…..we’ll see.

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Old 07-02-2015, 07:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

That escalated quickly.

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Old 07-06-2015, 07:48 AM   #16
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

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That escalated quickly.
Seriously.

I wrote an e-mail to the GM and Service Manager of the dealership and they requested to meet with me concerning everything I outlined.

On another forum they're saying I should be able to find a used (with grantee/shipping) for about $2K....and If I have to do this, I will. But I don't think this is a cost that I should be incurring since the motor was never shot....just misfiring.
It never had a knock, lost oil pressure or anything. When it chose to fire on all 6 cyl, it was fine.

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Old 07-10-2015, 09:38 AM   #17
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Alright –
So, an update after my meeting with the Service Manager of the GM dealership where I’ve been taking the car.

In a nutshell:
We sat down and he let me know his understanding of the situation.
I then let him know my side of the story.
Both very sides of the story were VERY similar although I did have to correct/inform him of a few items.

The Service Manger did confirm that he didn’t believe they handled the situation correctly on a couple of different levels. He even made the comment that a lot of times people come in with a complaint and he has to break the bad news to them which leaves them walking out of his office mad at him….in this instance he did not get a “warm and fuzzy feeling” that things went the way they should have.

He said there were two options we had to work with.
1. Come up with some pricing on motor replacement.
2. He said he spoke with the dealership owner that they could try and make us “a heck of a deal” on a car.
So, I listed off what cars we have been thinking about (with the mindset that we were going to drive the outlook for at least another year and buy one of the following – Tahoe, Suburban and a Honda Odysee. I did say we would look at an Acaidia because it is basically what we have now.

We left the meeting with the understanding that he would call me back with info on both of the above scenarios.
That was Wednesday.

Late Thursday afternoon, I received a call (couldn’t answer) and was left a voice mail.
They offered to replace my engine for $5K (keep in mind, I only owe $12K on the car), and said that the used car manager wanted us to come in to meet. He had a couple of cars we might like…but no pricing or anything.


My problem?
Even if I pay the $5K to replace the engine….that’s only going to put me back to where I was originally (I suspect) and driving a car with a brand new engine, misfiring.
If I buy a car from them, unless they pay my car off completely….I am going to be SO upside down in it I’ll never be able to recover. I’m of the assumption since they basically are selling me a motor just at a discounted price (no loss to them) that they aren’t going to pay my car off.

Again….I’m backed into a corner. I’ll end up calling them back here a bit later today and tell them this is far from what I was expecting considering the car had been in their possession 3 times all for the same thing and never showing signs of an “engine failure”. I realize that I was going to pay money to have the misfire addressed….but not pay half of what the car is worth to replace a motor…..but at this point I need to speak with a Regional Customer Service Rep about this.

Here’s the deal….I’m not looking to rip anyone off. But I’m not going to be ripped off either. If the dealership didn’t grenade my motor, they why did this thing crap out just outside of its power train warranty? I’ve taken care of the car/maintained it….is this motor such a POS that it doesn’t last much over 100K? If so, this will be the last GM product I buy, and I’m not necessarily a “brand loyal” person

Anyways….That’s the update.

So, I'm on to step two of working to get a resolution.

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Old 07-10-2015, 05:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Depending on the Regional Customer Service you could possibly try a lawyer to get them to replace the engine. If you have the records showing what it went in for and their response I figure you should have a good leg to stand on. Hope everything works out for you.

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Old 07-13-2015, 11:29 AM   #19
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Depending on the Regional Customer Service you could possibly try a lawyer to get them to replace the engine. If you have the records showing what it went in for and their response I figure you should have a good leg to stand on. Hope everything works out for you.

Yeah, if they stick to their guns, local media (consumer advocates), BBB and a Lawyer will be my next course of action.

I'm really trying to give them an opportunity to do this right, but I'm just not one thats going to be painted in to a corner and crumble.

If I thought for a second that the motor was F'd up at any point, I would just deal with it (not happy about it....but deal with it).

At no point until the last visit to the dealership did I (or the dealership...which speaks volumes) have any indication that there was an internal problem with the motor.

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Old 07-15-2015, 08:45 AM   #20
cgc
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Default Re: 2009 Outlook w/ 3.6 Misfiring (I've searched)

Mods, I know this post started as a tech/engine issue and has turned into something different. I was trying to document everything with the misfire because I couldn’t find much online about it and thought this would help someone else in the future. If this post needs to be moved at this point, feel free to do so.


**************
Update
Just spoke to the dealership after trying to call the Service Manager again (he never called me back) and finally sending another e-mail to him and the Dealership owner/GM.

I got the phone number for GM Customer Service (1-800-222-1020, if anyone is interested).

The Service Manager did say he checked with GM Assistance plan which apparently gives assistance in instances like this where the car is outside of warranty. He stated it would still end up costing me approx $3500 and would require the engine to be torn down and for them to find out what the issue is. At that point they would determine if it would be cheaper to do a rebuild (nice that they have this option, but it was not originally presented to us) or complete replacement.

Honestly, if I’m going to come out of pocket that amount I might as well trade the thing in for the loss and be done with it. Probably would end up roughly that much upside down, maybe a little more.

So I will attempt to call the GM Customer Service number and if that does not get anything resolved…..I’ll be contacting an attorney.

Say what you want. I get the car had a misfire, but at no point during the first two visits to the dealership did they ever notice any internal damage or when the car was in my possession….nothing. At some point during the car’s last visit to the dealership the motor went and supposedly the starter (which was really just a dead battery).
I’m not paying for a motor that had never had problems previously.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

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