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Old 05-15-2015, 02:03 PM   #1
wattey1947
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Default Sais p0410

Secondary Air Injection System, code P0410.

Service Engine Light Soon came on. Checked at AutoZone; two error codes, one P0410 for the Secondary Air Injection System, and the second for P0603 Non-volatile random access memory fault.

Had to replace the battery. When done, the Service Engine Light Soon went off! About a week later it returned. Since then it has gone off for a week or two and then came back on. This has happened a couple times now, air temperature doesn't seem to be a factor (happened whether it was cold or warm outside.) Also, the service engine soon light, when it comes on or off, occurs after driving for about 10 minutes, whether the car was cold or was still warm from it's last use. Have had this checked and get the same error codes repeatedly.

I did find a youtube video on this, starting at the beginning and working through to potentially being a clog in the head.

Before embarking on this, seems appropriate to get the thoughts here; potentially there is a shortcut to get to the answer and get this resolved. Thoughts, advice, experience will be appreciated.

In addition, from what I've read, the SAIS is only active for the first 30 seconds. Clarification would be appreciated so, if I get this to appear resolved, my bubble doesn't get bursted a bit later.

As always, thank you so much for reading and sharing your insight.

Mike

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Old 05-15-2015, 02:10 PM   #2
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Default Re: Sais p0410

You are correct. The air pump runs for 30-60 seconds on cold engine start up, depending on ambient temperature. If you have gone through the diagnosis and find a 30 second blast of air coming out of the diverter valve with the silver tube removed, and you still get the P0410 code, it is time to go excavating. I've had to do this twice on my car. Intermittent SES light is common as the head gets more and more plugged.

Clearing the head ports is easy on an SOHC, and a bit more time consuming on DOHC. Not sure which one you have.

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Old 05-17-2015, 06:42 AM   #3
wattey1947
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Default Re: Sais p0410

Do you know what ambient and or engine temperatures trigger the pump? (Would like to know so I don't chase the wrong problem)
Where do I disconnect the the tube to verify air is flowing?
Are there any instructions available to clean the head?
Given this is my only practical vehicle at the moment, and your comments. probably would like to prepare myself for cleaning the head when appropriate.
Thank you so much! Mike

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Old 05-18-2015, 07:16 AM   #4
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Default Re: Sais p0410

With the engine cold, the pump will always run on startup. The run duration is what varies with ambient temperature. 30 seconds on a summer morning, up to perhaps 60 seconds on a winter morning.

The silver tube is held in place by two 10 mm nuts on each end. There is a thin metal gasket at each end. Don't lose these, and they can be reused.

Which engine to you have, SOHC or DOHC?

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Old 05-18-2015, 03:15 PM   #5
wattey1947
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Default Re: Sais p0410

Some information: (It is a DOHC engine)
With the ignition on and the engine not running, the voltage across the two terminals to the pump was zero. When the engine is started, the voltage is 14.46 volts. After running a short time, the voltage goes back to zero. Presumably, this is normal operation at that point.

When the engine is running, and voltage is at the pump, and placing my hand on the pump, I didn't feel anything make me feel the pump was running.

I also disconnected the hose from the pump to the control switch switch and didn't feel any air going into or coming from the hose. There seemed to be a little air coming from the control switch.

From the above, is it likely the pump? Is there any further testing I should do before replacing the pump? (e.g. other connections?) Do you have a suggestion for a source for the pump?

Or.... is it something else.

Thank you very very much.

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Old 05-18-2015, 03:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Sais p0410

The voltage measurements you describe are normal, and indicate that the run signal is being sent to the air pump. With the large hose disconnected from the diverter valve (the contraption on top of the a/c compressor), on a cold start, you would definitely feel the air flow coming out of the hose if the air pump is running. Not leaf blower strong, but still very noticeable.

This points toward a failed air pump. If you are comfortable doing so, you can wire the pump directly to the battery for a few seconds to see if it responds. Occasionally, the ground wire connection on the pump goes bad. Wiring straight to the battery for test takes the ground wire out of the equation. With 12V applied directly to the pump, if it does not run, it is dead. If it does run, then you have a bad ground.

I replaced my air pump a long time ago with one purchased at a Saturn dealer (yes, they used to have those). It is possible that sites like GMpartsdirect might still have new air pumps. Otherwise, a junkyard may be your best bet. Take two wires with alligator clips with you so you can test the pump before you buy.

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Old 05-18-2015, 04:34 PM   #7
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Default Re: Sais p0410

Excellent information and advice, crisp and to the point.

I will do all those things, plus maybe dissassemble the pump a bit to see if it is repairable. (Yup, a bit anal that way). But always willing to look, maybe just the contacts within the motor.

Is it safe (and not damaging) to drive the car the way it is, and, is it save to drive the car with the pump removed? Does the hose need to be plugged or just left open?

I love this site, especially the people who make it so valuable, I love my little ol Saturn. Never thought I'd be driving a 14 year old car at this stage in my life, but it has been such a low maintenance vehicle, still runs well (everything works) and still looks pretty good.

Thank you so very much. Appreciate your knowledge and kindness. Mike

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Old 05-18-2015, 04:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: Sais p0410

Pump is part#21210000...

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Old 05-18-2015, 07:40 PM   #9
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Default Re: Sais p0410

No harm in driving it with a broken pump or with the pump removed. No need to plug the hose.

Happy to help - I've fought this stupid system on my car for years. Someone should benefit from my misery.

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Old 05-19-2015, 07:44 AM   #10
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Default Re: Sais p0410

Quote:
Originally Posted by wattey1947 View Post
Is it safe (and not damaging) to drive the car the way it is, and, is it save to drive the car with the pump removed? Does the hose need to be plugged or just left open?
Totally safe, the system is only in place to help reduce emissions. I just swapped my pump, nice and easy job overall.

What year is your Saturn, an '01? I believe this is the pump for an '01.

The part number MattWithCats is referencing is the check valve, which may, or may not, need to be replaced (though I've seen mention by other users that it can be disassembled and repaired).

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Old 05-20-2015, 11:12 AM   #11
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Default Re: Sais p0410

(Long winded because of the explanation from this ghetto mechanics view.)

More than once in my life problems like this ended up being "brush" "armature" contacts. Very often, if the armature is cleaned, and brush chambers are cleaned so the brush slides properly, the problem is solved.

So.. took off the air pump. Examined the pump assembly. At the larger end, the "air intake" area has a cover with three clips holding the cover on the pump assembly. Carefully, the clips holding the air intake cover can be --carefully-- pryed open with a small screwdriver --carefully-- wedged between the edge of the cap and the clip part on the blower assembly.

Once the cap is removed, the shaft of the motor can be seen. Getting my fat fingers in there, I was able to rotate the shaft. Then, I put an ohm meter on the contact cable on the blower assembly. Slowly rotating the shaft would reveal "open" measurements if the brush armature contact is the problem.

Didn't happen.

Then, I hooked up a battery charger with small wire connectors to the contact clip on the outside of the blower assembly. WTF!!! The motor worked.

I examined but could not find a way to further open up the motor to get at the brushes and armature which I would have liked to cleaned.

Not being able to do that, I slowly again rotated the shaft looking for "opens" in the circuit and spent a while doing this.

Having found none, I went back to using the battery charger to start the motor, and letting it come to complete stop, and did this 200 times looking for evidence that the brush armature was having a problem.

Never happened.

Carefully cleaned the connector contacts on the blower plug only with a very small file.

Reassembled everything. Started the car, pump worked. Did this twice and the Service Engine Soon light went out.

Why so anal about this?? Because of all the threads with people trying to solve this problem without success. So, I want to be sure that I'm replacing the part in need.

I stripped off about a pin head size of insulation on the connector wires on the vehicle side of the plug so if this happens again I can test the voltage when the problem is occurring while the pump is connected. And, if the voltage is there, when I get home, the next test will be to supply power to the pump side from the battery charger. Why: to rule out which side of the connector is the problem.

If (when) this problem occurs again I will update here in case this is of value to anyone else. Least I can do given all the help so many people have provided me over the years.

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Old 05-20-2015, 11:29 AM   #12
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Default Re: Sais p0410

Oh.. By the way.... What is that relatively loud clicking noise that seems to occur when the car is cold or just started up. This usually occurs several times. is this related to triggering the secondary air injection system, or something else, or ??? Thanks...

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Old 05-20-2015, 03:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: Sais p0410

Glad you got the air pump sorted. Hope that SES stays off for you for a while. Clattering or ticking sounds on cold startup can be several things, with the most common being the serpentine belt tensioner announcing its wear or valve lifters that take a while to pump up with oil.

Is the noise rythmic and does it vary with engine speed? I can't imagine the SAIS creating any noise like that. The air pump relay may click once, but I doubt you can hear it from inside the car.

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Old 05-21-2015, 12:03 PM   #14
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Default Re: Sais p0410

Right church, wrong pew, but the stench is increasing....

Yesterday left for a Dr appointment, Service Engine Light was still out. Remained out. Was at the DR office for about 2 hours.

On the way home, the service engine soon light came back on. Urghhhhh

Next Diagnosis sequencing:
(In retrospect, first thing I should have done was provided power directly to the pump. This would have saved some unnecessary work. Related question... ****does anyone know the amount of current is expected to be drawn by the pump?*** Also note that bench testing at a junk yard may not reveal if the current draw is within specs unless you test for that. Meaning, the pump may run but may not work properly.)

So, I tested the pump while still in the car by providing power directly to the plug. The pump started and seemed to work fine each and every time. Just like the bench testing yesterday.

Next, with the connector to the pump disconnected, I started the car and checked the voltage coming to the pump, it was about 14.4v when the engine started. Appearing to be correct.

Next, I tapped into the power line from the engine side, with the pump disconnected, started the car had 14.4 volts at the plug. THEN connected the power to the pump and ==>> the voltage quickly dropped to zero and the pump was not running. Disconnecting the power line to the pump and the voltage at the power line returned to 14.4 volts.

--->Much of this testing needs to be done quickly as there is only about a 30 second window when the car is started cold.

Now confirmed a have a power supply to the pump problem.

Next, swapped the two 30 amp circuit breakers, so the air pump had a different relay. The exact same results: after engine started, power to the air pump had 14.4 volts, when connected to the pump the voltage quickly dropped to zero. Disconnected the pump, and the voltage supply to the pump returned to 14.4 volts. Confirmed it isn't a relay problem.

Now, I know where the problem is and can repeat it. When connected as designed, the system has worked properly on some occasions as evidenced yesterday. But most of the time it doesn't. (It actually worked as intended one time today.) I would expect that the circuit to the airpump would provide enough capacity so that a fuse would blow if the airpump was drawing too much current.

Next, which side, positive or negative. Hoping it was the negative side, I connected an additional / alternative ground wire at the wire harness just before the plug. Lo and behold, problem solved, although not properly. Properly will be to determine where the "weak" ground is and correct that.

Does anyone know where the wire harness has it's ground for the air pump?

Thank you.

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Old 05-21-2015, 02:21 PM   #15
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Default Re: Sais p0410

Your methods and determination are admirable. I'm not sure exactly where the air pump ground wire physically connects to the car body. Give yourself a break and be satisfied with a secondary ground path - no shame in it.

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