SaturnFans.com
what's new (beta) - classifieds - forums - photos


Go Back   SaturnFans.com Forums > Models > Saturn S-Series > S-Series Tech
Register FAQ Members List Groups Calendar Chat Room Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-12-2015, 07:50 AM   #1
ef13
Junior Member
ef13 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Michigan
Posts: 13

1996
Default 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

1996 Saturn SL2, 170,000 miles. 1.9 dohc.

Went to start it yesterday started for just a second and quit. tried starting again and was turning over with no compression, like the timing chain broke. Have not pulled the valve cover yet to see. my concern is the interference engine, Does anyone think it could be ok since it ran for a second before quitting? should I perform a comp test with the chain off (if not already broken)? would I have to move both cams so the valves are in the closed position in each cylinder? but Im thinking if I do this, I have a chance of damaging the other valves in the other cylinders. So would a leak down test be the best choice for this or am I going to have to just pull the head to check?

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to ef13's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help ef13 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
ef13 is offline   Reply With Quote
SaturnFans.com Sponsored Links
Old 02-12-2015, 08:07 AM   #2
SL19302
Master Member
SL19302 is a name known to allSL19302 is a name known to allSL19302 is a name known to allSL19302 is a name known to allSL19302 is a name known to allSL19302 is a name known to all
 
SL19302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Drums, PA
Posts: 3,350

2000 SW2
2002 SL1
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ef13 View Post
1996 Saturn SL2, 170,000 miles. 1.9 dohc.

Went to start it yesterday started for just a second and quit. tried starting again and was turning over with no compression, like the timing chain broke. Have not pulled the valve cover yet to see. my concern is the interference engine, Does anyone think it could be ok since it ran for a second before quitting? should I perform a comp test with the chain off (if not already broken)? would I have to move both cams so the valves are in the closed position in each cylinder? but Im thinking if I do this, I have a chance of damaging the other valves in the other cylinders. So would a leak down test be the best choice for this or am I going to have to just pull the head to check?
Before you tear into the engine, I would absolutely do a compression test. If your timing chain was not making any noise prior to this happening I have a hard time believing it just gave up the ghost.

...
2015 Subaru Forester Limited "Prinny"
2000 SW2 Still Running Strong- 160K Traded In
2002 SL1 Still has Its Training Wheels on at 88K Traded In


CHECK YOUR OIL!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to SL19302's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help SL19302 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
SL19302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 08:08 AM   #3
VUEmaniac
Senior Member
VUEmaniac has a spectacular aura aboutVUEmaniac has a spectacular aura aboutVUEmaniac has a spectacular aura about
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,417
 

1997 SC2
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

How do you know there's no compression? Have you checked it? Are you sure it's getting fuel (can you hear the fuel pump come on)? What about spark?

I had a similar issue recently and it was simply a matter of dirty contacts on the fuel pump relay (a $10 part in the fuse panel). I'd check that and the fuel pump fuse (15A also in the same panel) before allowing panic to set in.

Best,

...
All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts, but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. -Frank Herbert-

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to VUEmaniac's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help VUEmaniac reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
VUEmaniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 09:55 AM   #4
mansaturn
Member
mansaturn is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 169
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

never seen a broken timing chain on these cars except from severe abuse or neglect.
(for instance, noise from a loose chain that is ignored for 10's of thousands of miles,
or driving the car with little or no oil).
if it is cold where you are, and you cranked it a long time, the most likely problem
is that the engine is flooded. and in severe cases, there is so much gas in the
cylinders that the oil is washed off the cylinder walls and you get little or no
compression. use the flooded-start procedure. once you get it started, you may
need a basic tune-up. worn out plugs & wires probably contributed to the starting
problem in the first place. good luck

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to mansaturn's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help mansaturn reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
mansaturn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 10:27 AM   #5
ef13
Junior Member
ef13 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Michigan
Posts: 13

1996
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

The sound of it turning over is like no compression (turning over faster and the sound is totally different).

Yes-fuel pump working. can hear it and smell fuel.

Tune up done within the last year.

not flooded. like I said it started and quit within a second and cranking it over after that, there was a totally different sound to it cranking.

You can hear a difference in the way its turning over, (Its not the starter either, it turns over fine)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to ef13's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help ef13 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
ef13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 10:27 AM   #6
billr
Master Member
billr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nice
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

That's a tough call...

Either the compression or leak-down test would require rotating the engine. The valve cover is easy to remove, but isn't the '96 plastic? If that isn't leaking now, you sure don't want to tease it. I think I would rotate the engine carefully by hand, then do compression test if it seems to rotate OK.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 10:37 AM   #7
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,236
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

If you break the chain it falls down in the timing chain area and binds up the crank, engine is LOCKED.

Take the plugs out, put a squirt of oil in the cylinders and check for compression. Pull the PCM B fuse and quit dumping gas into the engine.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 10:38 AM   #8
billr
Master Member
billr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nice
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

And this, from one of my first threads here, for your amusement..

"We bought a '94 SL2 in July '94 (still have it) and in the first month or so the engine refused to start one day. It cranked and sounded like it was cranking with no compression. This was at home, so I pulled the four plugs and checked compression. Sure enough, zero on all cylinders! I'm a die-hard DIYer, but the car was so new that I just put the plugs back in and called the dealer. While they were on the way to tow it I did try cranking again after the plugs were re-installed, still no hint of compression. So they towed it to the shop and just a couple of hours later called to say it was ready to pick up. I asked what was found wrong and they said "Nothing, we just turned the key and it started right up; but if it happens again we will replace the head" (never has happened again). My pet theory is that there is an oil passage in the head feeding the lifters that was problematic; something happened there and lifters collapsed on all cylinders. I figure they pulled the valve cover, and unplugged an orifice or something, that's all they would have had time for. Does anyone know of a chronic problem like this and can tell me the real cause so I can sleep peacefully again after all these years?"

The "mystery" is still open, nobody has a clue and the car is still running fine.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 11:15 AM   #9
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,236
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

The OP does not have a broke chain as it can't fall into the pan as it will not fit and the DOHC lifters do not have sufficient stroke to prevent valve operation even if completely bled down either so your nicely bolded SWAG as to the problem is not a correct guess.

What can happen is shearing the pin on the exhaust cam though which might be this OPs problem. The pin only shears of if the cam bolt happens to have lost torque.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 11:23 AM   #10
mansaturn
Member
mansaturn is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 169
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

ef, you could also check all the fuses to make sure you haven't blown a pcm, ignition
module or injector fuse. but the seemingly low compression points to a blown motor
or flooding. since you didn't mention a mechanical crash, crunch, and rattle, i don't
think your motor is blown. like oldnuc says, remove the plugs. if you see/smell lots of
gas in there, it's flooded. another cause of problematic cold starts i forgot to
mention is a bad temp sensor.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to mansaturn's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help mansaturn reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
mansaturn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 11:27 AM   #11
billr
Master Member
billr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nice
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

You are missing my point. There is something that can happen suddenly, and then disappear or easily be corrected, in these engines such that compression is lost in all cylinders, like down to zero psi. I'm not saying that has to be the OP's issue, just that it can happen, and nobody has come up with a reason why. I'll be interested to hear what the OP finds.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 11:42 AM   #12
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,236
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

^^^Yes, I did miss the point.

It is a rather large, high torque starter for a 1.9L engine and it only spins at ~250RPM on the starter. The early ones had a really over sized starter. Dumping a lot of fuel into the engine does result in the immediate appearance of no compression.

If the fuel injected engine does not immediately start it is flooded. Continued cranking is not going to be productive.

Once you experience a protracted failure to start there are several things that if done will markedly increase the probability of starting the car after verifying that you do have both spark and fuel.

1) remove PCM B fuse
2) place battery on a slow charger for 16 to 24 hours before the next start attempt
3) remove all plugs and place about a tablespoon full of engine oil in each cylinder and crank engine over 1 or 2 complete revolutions
4) install new plugs
5) install new wires
6) verify correct plug wire routing and dress, do not assume it is correct
7) replace PCM B fuse and turn key to RUN for 3 to 5 seconds but do not crank engine, then turn back off to lock position
8) wait 30 seconds
9) repeat #7 and #8
10) turn key to RUN, wait 3 seconds and continue to CRANK, only crank engine for about 5 seconds if it does not start, that will be ~21 revolutions of the engine

If the engine does not start after following these steps its time to start looking at other causes of not starting.


Flooded Restart use this if you know the cause is a flooded engine and you can reasonably expect the battery condition will support the 15 seconds of starter run:
1) Turn on the key (not start) and wait 3 seconds.
2) Put your foot on the accelerator and floor it.
3) Crank the engine for no more than 15 seconds (15-count works) with your foot to the floor. For the last several revolutions/seconds, let off the accelerator while still cranking and then stop attempting to start.
4) If it doesn't start in those 15-seconds, ***WAIT 10-MINUTES*** to allow the starter to cool off before you attempt to start again. If you DON'T you are liable to damage the starter. Battery should also be on a charger as a fully charged battery is required for this to work.
5) REPEAT steps 1 through 4 until engine starts.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 05:54 PM   #13
ef13
Junior Member
ef13 is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Michigan
Posts: 13

1996
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

I pulled the valve cover off. Chain is fine. Too cold out to do a comp test today. Not really sure what's going on???

Pulled the PCM fuse and turned it over, cams seem to be moving as they should.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to ef13's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help ef13 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
ef13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 06:05 PM   #14
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,236
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

Follow the protracted no start procedure, do not skip any steps. If you run a compression test oil the cylinders first and follow this procedure.

Crank the engine until the gauge quits increasing and compare both the final pressure and number of compression strokes to reach the max pressure, cylinder to cylinder. Any other method has no value for comparison in a forum setting. You can do this test either cold or hot or warm just mention it when stating results. For example if you find all cylinders produce a final reading of 200psi but the compression cycles are as follows: 1-8, 2-6, 3-8, 4-14 then it should be obvious that cylinder #4 has a serious problem with leakage past either the valves or compression rings.

To prevent washing the cylinders down with fuel remove the PCM B fuse to shut off the fuel pump, injectors, and ignition before starting the test. Remove all spark plugs and block the throttle open. Use a low charge rate battery charger to fully charge the battery before conducting the test.

FSM states the MINIMUM number of compression cycles is 10 and a Fully charged battery is required to obtain the full 250RPM cranking speed. The FSM also does not mention counting the compression cycles and recording them. This is because the high tech recording tester counts them for you and even a blind mechanic can see the differences on the chart. As most of us are doing this with a simple pressure gauge you have to count them yourself.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 06:17 PM   #15
SL19302
Master Member
SL19302 is a name known to allSL19302 is a name known to allSL19302 is a name known to allSL19302 is a name known to allSL19302 is a name known to allSL19302 is a name known to all
 
SL19302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Drums, PA
Posts: 3,350

2000 SW2
2002 SL1
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ef13 View Post
I pulled the valve cover off. Chain is fine. Too cold out to do a comp test today. Not really sure what's going on???

Pulled the PCM fuse and turned it over, cams seem to be moving as they should.
If the chain is intact and fine the engine just wont loose compression overnight, Either the plugs are worn, Theres no spark, fuel or the engine is flooded, Follows OldNucs advice on starting a flooded engine, After verifying you have spark and fuel. I wouldn't have went through all the trouble of removing the valve cover before verifying compression, spark and fuel, I have yet to see a broken timing chain on these engines, They usually get noisy and really cause a racket before totally failing.

...
2015 Subaru Forester Limited "Prinny"
2000 SW2 Still Running Strong- 160K Traded In
2002 SL1 Still has Its Training Wheels on at 88K Traded In


CHECK YOUR OIL!

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to SL19302's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help SL19302 reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
SL19302 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2015, 06:33 PM   #16
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,236
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

The engine is flooded from a failed start and the protracted start routine is what will get it running. The OP has not shared his location but did comment on very cold so it all fits. Cold engine, weak battery, engine floods out and no longer will attempt to fire.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 10:04 AM   #17
mansaturn
Member
mansaturn is on a distinguished road
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 169
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

even the best of advice often falls on deaf ears. a good rule to follow:
asking a question is unnecessary if you're going to do the exact same thing
no matter what the answer,

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to mansaturn's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help mansaturn reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
mansaturn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 10:14 AM   #18
fdryer
Super Member
fdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond reputefdryer has a reputation beyond repute
 
fdryer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 38,999
 

2003 L-Series 3.0L Sedan
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billr View Post
And this, from one of my first threads here, for your amusement..

"We bought a '94 SL2 in July '94 (still have it) and in the first month or so the engine refused to start one day. It cranked and sounded like it was cranking with no compression. This was at home, so I pulled the four plugs and checked compression. Sure enough, zero on all cylinders! I'm a die-hard DIYer, but the car was so new that I just put the plugs back in and called the dealer. While they were on the way to tow it I did try cranking again after the plugs were re-installed, still no hint of compression. So they towed it to the shop and just a couple of hours later called to say it was ready to pick up. I asked what was found wrong and they said "Nothing, we just turned the key and it started right up; but if it happens again we will replace the head" (never has happened again). My pet theory is that there is an oil passage in the head feeding the lifters that was problematic; something happened there and lifters collapsed on all cylinders. I figure they pulled the valve cover, and unplugged an orifice or something, that's all they would have had time for. Does anyone know of a chronic problem like this and can tell me the real cause so I can sleep peacefully again after all these years?"

The "mystery" is still open, nobody has a clue and the car is still running fine.
billr, you might find this interesting (service bulletin below).
Attached Files
File Type: pdf crank-no-start-when-cold-due-to-compression-loss.pdf (37.0 KB, 25 views)

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to fdryer's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help fdryer reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
fdryer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 10:25 AM   #19
OldNuc
Super Member
OldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant futureOldNuc has a brilliant future
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Far Southwestern Iowa
Posts: 63,236
 

1998 SC2
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

A very few of the mid 90s SOHC engines had sticking intake issues that show up as a miss at idle. They are fixed by applying the TSB fix of Techron induction into the intake.

There is no evidence of DOHC engines having all intake or exhaust valves stick to the point a TSB was generated. Anything is possible.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to OldNuc's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help OldNuc reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
OldNuc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2015, 11:35 AM   #20
billr
Master Member
billr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nicebillr is just really nice
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,052
Default Re: 96 SL2 not starting, timing chain?

Fdryer, of course I appreciate any clues and that TSB was of interest. However, my engine being a completely different '94 "S-series" and virtually brand-new when this happened, I don't believe what is described in the TSB was my problem. The only report I got from the dealer at that time was that they could find nothing wrong (it started right up for them) and they would change the head if it happened again.

REWARD EXCELLENCE!

Add to billr's Reputation
Rate the quality of this post and help billr reputation points. Click the reputation button near the bottom left corner of this message box. Thank you!
billr is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
sounds like the timing chain coming in contact with timing cover prioris S-Series Tech 3 12-08-2012 12:12 AM
timing chain sounds like it could be coming into contact with timing cover prioris Sky Tech 0 12-07-2012 09:31 PM
Timing Chain? Chain loose, engine cranks, no start DJboozeAlot S-Series Tech 18 10-21-2012 01:23 PM
Timing Chain starting to make noise mas S-Series Tech 3 12-22-2004 10:57 PM
Starting timing chain how to video Nowhere Man S-Series Tech 27 07-15-2004 12:14 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:12 PM.

Advanced Forum Search | Advanced Photo Search


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SaturnFans.com. The Saturn Enthusiasts Site.