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Old 12-04-2014, 07:54 AM   #1
RLINE
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Default 2004 Ion RL E85?

Im thinking of going E85 anyone on here have that done?

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Old 12-04-2014, 08:50 AM   #2
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

From the owner's manual (below), a reprint of fuel requirements. Service manual reprint of fuel; Ethanol concentrations of greater than 10 percent can cause driveability conditions and fuel system deterioration. Fuel with more than 10 percent ethanol could result in driveability conditions such as hesitation, lack of power, stalling , or no start. Excessive concentrations of ethanol used in vehicles not designed for it may cause fuel system corrosion, deterioration of rubber components, and fuel filter restriction.
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Old 12-04-2014, 09:47 AM   #3
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RLINE View Post
Im thinking of going E85 anyone on here have that done?
I'm sure their are many that have other vehicles- labeled for use using E85 -

Ion's aren't.

The end.

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Old 12-04-2014, 10:53 AM   #4
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

You can use E85.
First, you would need to order the e85 kit for the redline to do the swap correctly. Then you would need the car re-tuned for e85 because the AFRs will change with the higher ethanol mix.
I would have done it by now, but I don't have a gas station in my state with it.

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Old 12-04-2014, 11:08 AM   #5
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

It cost less and will get you worse mileage..

But then you get to visit your favorite E85 station more frequently Oh joy! THe world is saved because of gov't subsidies, farmers throwing fertilizer on corn and excess production that nets no real savings anywhere.

What's the point?

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Old 12-04-2014, 01:21 PM   #6
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billysvue View Post
It cost less and will get you worse mileage..

But then you get to visit your favorite E85 station more frequently Oh joy! THe world is saved because of gov't subsidies, farmers throwing fertilizer on corn and excess production that nets no real savings anywhere.

What's the point?
It is for performance. High ethanol levels means it burns quicker, yes. But that means the motor has to spit out more fuel, meaning everything is spinning quicker.
Now, would I do it? Yes. My car is also not my daily drive though. It would be insane to do that for a daily, and pointless.

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Old 12-04-2014, 01:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

Yes you can easily run e85 in a redline. All you need are bigger injectors and a retune.

Why run e85? Why not? You can tune in more power (more than premium), at a cheaper price.

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Old 12-20-2014, 09:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

my ion is on e85. i have no complaints at all

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Old 12-20-2014, 09:58 AM   #9
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

why do you want to use it? worse mileage and worse for enviroment.

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Old 12-20-2014, 10:39 AM   #10
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

Quote:
Originally Posted by onefunkar View Post
why do you want to use it? worse mileage and worse for enviroment.
It is used for performance reasons.

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Old 12-20-2014, 11:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

Quote:
Originally Posted by onefunkar View Post
why do you want to use it? worse mileage and worse for enviroment.
More power than premium and safer power for less than premium. In a performance car, why not use it?

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Old 12-21-2014, 10:07 AM   #12
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

ok. makes sense to me.

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Old 12-21-2014, 10:58 AM   #13
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

Since the service manual doesn't recommend E85 for the Redline, I have a question. Using the ethanol to air fuel mixture of 9:1 for 100% ethanol, stock Redlines not tuned for E85, and a fudge factor of gasoline to offset balance the a/f ratio (whatever that may be), is there any long term damage using E85? Is the higher fuel mixture needed to run ethanol offset by the 15% gasoline mix?

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Old 12-22-2014, 12:27 AM   #14
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

You need a new tune and usually bigger injectors to allow more fuel to be added, and on the high end (stage 3 plus, tvs supercharger) you might need a different fuel pump setup, of coarse, but it still ends up being cheaper and safer than premium with more knock resistance than premium. The fuel system on ions can handle the alcohol content in every other way.

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Old 12-22-2014, 02:10 AM   #15
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

There must be a reason GM doesn't recommend E85. Perhaps the following isn't revealed (from wikipedia);

Ethanol promoters claim that today's FFV are much too inexact in measuring the ethanol content because car companies will not pay the high patent royalties demanded for fuel content sensors.[citation needed] They state that some FFV have use wastefully high-flow fuel injectors which are not necessary and waste fuel all the time on either fuel. The technical term is "excessive fuel pulse width modulation".

Other ethanol advocates also state that it is a mistake to base ethanol engine design on gasoline engine design, but that ethanol engines should be based on diesel engine design parameters instead.[clarification needed] Using this approach, the EPA has produced an ethanol-only engine which achieves much higher brake thermal efficiency levels than gasoline engines achieve.[4]

In contrast, ethanol critics contest the benefits of E85 by focusing on the fact that E85 has 33% less energy content than 100% gasoline (and 30% less than the E10 gasohol blend that is sold by almost all retailers in the US).[5] The amount of reduction in mileage, therefore, is highly dependent upon the particulars of the vehicle design, exact composition of the ethanol-gasoline blend, and state of engine tune (primarily fuel-air mixture and compression ratio). In order to offset this change in fuel economy there has been much legislation passed to subsidize the cost.

Use in flexible-fuel vehicles

E85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such FFV are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. There are a few major differences between FFVs and non-FFVs. One is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system. Another is that fuel pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel. Fuel injection control systems have a wider range of pulse widths to inject approximately 34% more fuel. Stainless steel fuel lines, sometimes lined with plastic, and stainless-steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks are used. In some cases, FFVs use acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank-mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used.

Octane rating

As more effort is put into maximizing an engine to take advantage of E85's higher "octane", engines achieve greater power advantages. One car that has higher power on ethanol is the Koenigsegg CCXR, which on ethanol is the third-most powerful production car, with 20% more hp on E85 than on gasoline. According to the manufacturer, this is due to the cooling properties of ethanol. E85 has an octane rating higher than that of regular gasoline's typical rating of 87, or premium gasoline's 91-93. This allows it to be used in higher-compression engines, which tend to produce more power per unit of displacement than their gasoline counterparts. The Renewable Fuels Foundation states in its Changes in Gasoline IV manual, "There is no requirement to post octane on an E85 dispenser. If a retailer chooses to post octane, they should be aware that the often cited 105 octane is incorrect. This number was derived by using ethanol’s blending octane value in gasoline. This is not the proper way to calculate the octane of E85. Ethanol’s true octane value should be used to calculate E85’s octane value. This results in an octane range of 94-96 (R+M)/2. These calculations have been confirmed by actual-octane engine tests." [12]

Examples of this mis-citation can be found at the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association titled "E85 Facts"[13] which cites a range of 100-105, and a document at the Texas State Energy Conservation Office titled "Ethanol",[14] which cites a 113 rating.

Some vehicles can actually be converted to use E85 despite not being specifically built for it. Because of the lower heating value E85 has a cooler intake charge—which, coupled with its high stability level from its high octane rating—has also been used as a "power adder" in turbocharged performance vehicles. These modifications have not only resulted in lower GHG emissions, but also resulted in 10-12% power and torque increase at the wheels. Because of its low price (less than $2.00/gal in some places) and high availability in certain areas people have started to turn to using it in place of high-end racing fuels, which typically cost over $10.00/gal.

E85 consumes more fuel in FFV when the vehicle uses the same compression ratio for both E85 and gasoline, because of its lower air–fuel ratio and lower heating value.

Corrosion in non-E85 fuel systems

Use of gasoline in an engine with a high enough compression ratio to use E85 efficiently would likely result in catastrophic failure due to premature fuel ignition, as the octane rating of gasoline is not high enough to withstand the greater compression ratios in use in an engine specifically designed to run on E85. Using E85 in a gasoline engine has the drawback of achieving lower fuel economy, as more fuel is needed per unit air (stoichiometric ratio) to run the engine in comparison with gasoline. The additional ethanol required for a stoichiometric fuel ratio helps compensate for lack of energy provided by ethanol's lower heating value (LHV), which is lower than the LHV of gasoline.

Fuel systems and engines not designed or modified to use E85 may experience increased wear and may fail prematurely. Some (particularly older) fuel systems and those used in powersports and agricultural engines contain rubber seal elements which have excellent gasoline resistance but poor ethanol resistance. These systems generally can accept up to E10 without major degradation in service life of susceptible seal components.

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Old 12-22-2014, 12:38 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

yeah i wouldnt go by that. obviously ffv's wont use its full potential. an actually tune to run e85 all the time is where you net the most gains. most fuel economy and most power that way. plus its way safer to run. i would use it over meth or a nitrous shot any day

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Old 12-22-2014, 02:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

It comes down to one thing, they doesn't want to develop an ecu protocol and change the sending unit to an ethanol sensing model on an outgoing model to make it dual fuel when the cruze would be coming up. The ion was to cheap a car for them to spend the money to retrofit it, but trust me, it can. Obviously, since the ion lacks the extra sensor, it's either e85 or regular gas, and cannot be switched willy nilly like ffvs

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Old 12-22-2014, 04:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

^ Makes sense. ^ Its unfortunate when compromises are made especially with a stock Redline equipped with a blower. I can't imagine the larger group of buyers possible if the R/L was set up for E85 to take full advantage to make more power. The lack of an established network of E85 stations around the country similar to every station selling 93 octane might have created a large sub group of R/L owners enjoying blower power. No different to cars requiring premium fuel. Poor market timing before Saturn closed its doors forever?

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Old 12-28-2014, 11:43 PM   #19
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

Wish i had seen this post sooner, my buddy and i e85ed his 04 irl. For the build that we were doing on the car it was the best bang for the buck. The car has a tvs 1320 on a 2.6 pully, 1000 cc injector, short tube header, cat delete, walbro 255 ltr pump? 06 fuel pump canister, front mount heat exchanger and im sure im forgeting something. We took the car to a track and dyno day and the car was almost untouchable. When we dynoed the car it came out on all 3 pulls at 401 whp. I dont think we could have made that kinda power on pump gas unless we went turbo, which is a headache i dont need. But as far as the e85 not recommended for the car, i belive it is due to the fuel pump. When we were doing the research i think it was that the regular fuel pump would have been seized or the seals and small components would disintegrate.

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Old 12-29-2014, 12:20 AM   #20
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Default Re: 2004 Ion RL E85?

A guy I know in green bay has been running e85 for years. Maybe the aftermarket pump is the problem. There's always a possibility something will fail, but as far as I know he still runs it with no problems.

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