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Old 12-03-2014, 09:41 AM   #1
tmn318
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2009 Outlook XR
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Dizzy 2009 outlook-carbon buildup


I have a 2009 Outlook with 128,000 miles. The check engine light was on 2 weeks ago. I brought it to the dealer and they did a tune-up for $700. In less than a week the check engine light came on again. I brought it back to the dealer and the service manager said that there is carbon buildup and it needs new CYLINDER HEADS. Can this be?

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Old 12-03-2014, 10:11 AM   #2
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

What exactly did they do for $700? Is there any record of the check engine light/error code(s) on the receipt for services?

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Old 12-03-2014, 10:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmn318 View Post
I have a 2009 Outlook with 128,000 miles. The check engine light was on 2 weeks ago. I brought it to the dealer and they did a tune-up for $700. In less than a week the check engine light came on again. I brought it back to the dealer and the service manager said that there is carbon buildup and it needs new CYLINDER HEADS. Can this be?
WHat's the vehicle history? DOes it burn through oil?

...
'05 ,2.2L, FWD,5-speed stick with transaxle death rattle is history,,,
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:07 AM   #4
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

I have the invoice at home. I know he scribbled about 7 codes on the bottom of it when he spoke to me. They changed the plugs and wires, and cleaned out the carbon I think for $700. He said it is a complicated job on this vehicle. NO!!!! Has never burned through oil. Never had a problem and I change the oil aver 4000 miles or so.

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Old 12-03-2014, 11:39 AM   #5
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmn318 View Post
Has never burned through oil. Never had a problem and I change the oil aver 4000 miles or so.
It doesn't need to be topped up in 4000 miles? Dipstick levels don't drop over that time?

...
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Old 12-03-2014, 11:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

The level does not drop. I get the oil and filter changed every 4000 miles.

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Old 12-03-2014, 11:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

Unless the error codes are cryptic, all error codes are standardized like Pnnnn, Bnnnn, Cnnnn or Unnnn. For example, P0300 means a general ignition misfire. Post the error codes. Any check engine light staying ON can be decoded by most readers; Autozone and those sold everywhere. The exceptions are B/C/U codes unique to each manufacturer and require readers capable of decoding them.

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Old 12-03-2014, 11:07 PM   #8
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

I didn't look in S.I. tonight (feeling lazy) but being as the rest of the r/v trucks went to s.i.d.i.(spark ignited direct injection) that use a very high pressure fuel pump similar to a diesel injection pump pressures like 22,000 psi...we moved the fuel injectors into the cylinder head chamber across from the spark plug..hence the reason for the higher operating pressures...traditionaly the fuel injecter was placed above the intake valve,the fuel would was the valve and keep it semi clean...since the injecter is now below the valve.all the oil inhaled through the intake and valve guides sticks to the valve stem and can cause the valve not to seat,missfire's,lack of compression,sticking valves..i have seen one so bad the valve stuck in the open position...there are 3 things we do under war to fix this..

the 1st is an induction cleaning..this is an attempt to remove the deposits with a upper end engine cleaning solution while the engine is running.I WOULD NOT ADVISE this for the dyi crowd..you are running a liquid solution(that does not compress)into a running moter..to little no effect too much you just hydrolocked a cyclinder and shortend a rod..that will be expensive


2nd is we pull the intake&plentum off and hand scrap the gunk off and soak a cyclinder that has both valves closed with the solution for 20 min and clean and suck out the solution and repeate for the other 5 cyclinders this has a 50/50 success ratio.keep in mind the engine has been missfireing or running bad to get to this point

3rd is we replace the affected cyclinder head....


there are many reasons the 3.6L and the 2.4L sidi engines consume the oil the 1st is a plugged air filter,2nd is lack of checking your oil..

lets do a little math the 3.6L holds 6 qt oil. GM's acceptable rate of oil consumption is 1 qt every 2,000 miles..let's say you go by the oil life moniter that after the recall or ecm update was set to 7,500 miles..let's say for the sake of argument that you always go to 0% and never past that like a 1,000 miles like most customers I see..at the normal rate of consumption you have inhaled/burnt 3.5 qts of oil.leaving 2.5 qts to run and protect your engine..the oil that's left sludges up sticks the oil control and compression rings in the piston lands(they are low tension rings btw) after you shut the moter off evry day until the next oil change...this increases the oil consumption evan more...


moral of the story ck the level your self 1 time a week..as a rule no shop is going to top off 1 qt at a time to see how low it was before the oil change..we know it's low and figure so do you...

...
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Old 12-04-2014, 07:16 AM   #9
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

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I WOULD NOT ADVISE this for the dyi crowd..you are running a liquid solution(that does not compress)into a running moter..to little no effect too much you just hydrolocked a cyclinder and shortend a rod..that will be expensive...
Easy peasy with distilled water for a steam clean or more combustible liquids, like SeaFoam .

Been doing this on several motors over the years. Only hydrolocking I have ever heard about wasa friend trying to drive through the HAssayampa RIver in AZ.. (Trucks are not submarines) .

I suppose you could do the same to amotor in your driveweay pouring liquid down the TB, but it would have to be quite a bit to overcome the natural tendency of the motor to stall. Of course, that's the risk, stalling with too much liquid being poured in. MItigate it and their shouldn't be an issue.

A slow metered drizzle while keeping R's up should keep risks at a minimum.

...
'05 ,2.2L, FWD,5-speed stick with transaxle death rattle is history,,,
'17 Suby Forester

245216 mi. VUe is off to the dealer auction
I'm a secondhand vegetarian.
Cows eat grass, I eat cows.

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Old 12-04-2014, 11:23 AM   #10
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

The codes were: P0300, P0306, P0305, P0304, P0303, P0132, P0101, and C0361. The dealer changed the O2 sensor, cleaned carbon from valves and replaced plugs. Less than one week later, the check engine light came on. Same codes so the dealer said I need to have the cylinder heads changed at a cost of $3300. Is this possible?????

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Old 12-04-2014, 12:05 PM   #11
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

ANything is possible. Is it needed? I would get another opinion from an independent shop.

Other than the light, are their noticeable driveability issues?

...
'05 ,2.2L, FWD,5-speed stick with transaxle death rattle is history,,,
'17 Suby Forester

245216 mi. VUe is off to the dealer auction
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Cows eat grass, I eat cows.

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Old 12-04-2014, 12:48 PM   #12
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

There are no driveable issues. They even said I can drive it with no problem. I am going to get another opinion from a local shop that I like, but I was curious for opinions since it is such an expensive repair. Thank you

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Old 12-04-2014, 01:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

So, there are no drivability issues and your dealer wants to replace cylinder heads? How does a seat-of-the-pants self diagnosis (yours) not match replacing cylinder heads needing replacement? Most engines requiring cylinder head repair/replacement are usually characterized by a host of symptoms including; poor starting, running, lack of power, severe oil burning/smoking, etc.. Since you have not described any unusual and dramatic problems, you may need to think carefully what may be occurring here. If you decide to seek out another opinion, refrain from mentioning what GM suggests to another repair shop to lessen the tendency to tip off anyone. Anyone with experience can determine sooner or later what's wrong with a car.

P0300, P0306, P0305, P0304, P0303 are all related to misfiring with the ignition system. P0300 is a general misfire code, P0303 for cyl #3. P0304 for cyl #4, P0305 for cyl #5 and P0306 for cyl #6. A V6 engine numbers each cylinder bank as either 1,3,5 or 2,4,6. With misfiring on both cylinder banks, something is common to misfiring. It won't be injectors, coils or fuel. You can Google the remaining error codes with one good site for info; http://www.obd-codes.com/.

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Old 12-04-2014, 01:53 PM   #14
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

I will make an appt. with my local guy and tell him the check engine light is on and that I just had the O2 sensor and plugs changed and see what he says. I did look up the codes. Misfires. I could not find out what remedy is suggested.

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Old 12-04-2014, 01:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

Gather the other error codes for info and post what you find. In my view, it's too early to determine where fault lies. This can be as simple as a blown fuse, loose electrical connection, loose parts...........

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Old 12-04-2014, 09:08 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

Quote:
Originally Posted by billysvue View Post
Easy peasy with distilled water for a steam clean or more combustible liquids, like SeaFoam .

Been doing this on several motors over the years. Only hydrolocking I have ever heard about wasa friend trying to drive through the HAssayampa RIver in AZ.. (Trucks are not submarines) .

I suppose you could do the same to amotor in your driveweay pouring liquid down the TB, but it would have to be quite a bit to overcome the natural tendency of the motor to stall. Of course, that's the risk, stalling with too much liquid being poured in. MItigate it and their shouldn't be an issue.

A slow metered drizzle while keeping R's up should keep risks at a minimum.
for those not in the know..engine tech has come a long way..connecting rods in the 3.6l and 99% of our fleet moter use a rod that is basicly highly compressed brake shaveings heat treated then split fractured meaning there is no machined surface on the rod bearing cap..this means only that cap will mate up with it's rod ever..these rods are farly tough for normal service but are not robust enough to handle liquid in the cyc.. a hot rod will shorten itself 3/4 to 1 inch.. I have seen it.. gen 1-3 engines used drop forged technology..this is not the case in gen 4's and any of the original sigma platform moters..ie cts/sts these were the 1st test beds other than a few 05 u vans...

...
shure you can trust the government,just ask us indians all about it...

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Old 12-04-2014, 09:16 PM   #17
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

tmn318 pm me your vin ..is your powertrain war up? I can tell you if it is..also any work done in the last 2 yrs?powertrain dropped? timming chains? these moters have 4 ground rings on the heads 2 on each bank..these moters are known for counting misfires that cant be felt due to these grounds being loose or damage or a high resistance..also did the dealer do a leak down test or a running compression test to determine you need new heads?..if you arnt feeling a miss..i would proceed with caution..a cyclinder has to have above 25-30% leak down before there is a miss in the engine you can feel..anything above 35% is a straight dead hole...

...
shure you can trust the government,just ask us indians all about it...

heavy line the final protective fire line of the dealership

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Old 12-15-2014, 01:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-check engine light.

I brought it to my local mechanic. He put it on the computer and decided I needed coils and a fuel pump. That cost 2 days and $1800. I had the car back for one day and the check engine light came on AGAIN. I immediately brought it back and the mechanic kept the car for 2 days and drove it for 100 miles and the light never came on. I got my car back on Thursday evening. I drove it on Friday, Saturday and on Sunday the check engine light came on. I am very frustrated. Any thoughts?????

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Old 12-16-2014, 06:14 AM   #19
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

$700 for a tune up and $1800 for coils and fuel pump = $2500........and the check engine light is still ON? Something's fishy smelling here and maybe time to do your own diagnostics - going to Autozone and having someone read the error codes for you while you observe and write down every error code that pops up. Your choice since you're not out of the woods. All but one error code are defined. I wonder if you were deliberately given faulty info.................

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Old 12-16-2014, 10:53 PM   #20
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Default Re: 2009 outlook-carbon buildup

oh he is getting misfire counts on 1 bank for sure..just because the miss is not enough to feel doesn't mean it is not happening...because the ecm knows exactly where the crank&all 4 cams are due to the sensors and the projected rpm based off a known good table in the rom of the ecm..the ecm can see misfires that can't be felt but can be watched on the live graphing screen on a tech2&candi module..it will cross the graph very slowly.. the ecm will flag it after a predetermined amount of time.as it is a catalyst damageing problem..this is why after they clear the codes it takes awhile to come back...as I said you eather need to take the intake off and scrap the vavles and soak em manualy. or find a bg dealeror some one to do an induction clean..imho..it's too late for the induction cleaning..the oil consumption&plugged air filters I mentioned above have already done the damage...and new heads will no cure the stuck/collapsed oil rings..so the problem will return.. and a short block last I looked was about 6k with no gaskets/fluids or all the componants that need to be cleaned or swapped over...sorry bro



also the op didn't say if they did a leakdown test or a running compression test to jump to the conclusion of heads...but as a dealer tech with way to much experience with the 3.6L I would concur with heads due to what I have seen in the past 5 yrs..the suck deal is the guides are non serviceable.you could have the seats cleaned and valves ground but worn guides will use oil. that is gm's deal..it's how it is evan for gm..bad guides or seats,gets a head& new valves,some assembly required as you can't get a gm head for the 3.6 assembled

...
shure you can trust the government,just ask us indians all about it...

heavy line the final protective fire line of the dealership

Last edited by satlite440; 12-16-2014 at 11:01 PM..

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