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Old 08-10-2014, 12:09 AM   #81
jasenpeters
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Heater Hose Fitting: The intake one is even worse condition.

Measurements & Specs:
-- Can I assume the shop will know what all the numbers are and what to do if machining or replacement is necessary? I don't have the experience to question their recommendation, except what I can show you guys and your feedback.

Hot Tank:
-- Engine Block sans main top caps and bearings
-- Crank Shaft
-- Pistons sans top cap & bearings
-- Timing cover, stripped as recommended
Is that all?

To be honest Oldnuc, I'm ready to replace everything if it's best, hopefully not the block. Maybe a little honing or boring, safely.

Rebuilding the Head:
At the beginning of this post, I had sent it to a shop here in Austin to get the chipped valves replaced. I can't say if they actually checked valve clearances, cam specs, etc, or even did an official rebuild.
I got the head back with repaired valves, new seals (came with the felpro gasket kit) and a cleaned head.($250-ish).
Will I need them to do more?

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Old 08-10-2014, 12:09 AM   #82
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
Stripping Down the Engine for the Shop:

Engine
-- All parts are off except:
---- Heater hose fitting - I would like to replace this if possible, ok to remove?
---- Engine Hex Plugs - Do I need to bother?
---- Head, Rear Seal Carrier, or other Dowels - Do I need to bother?
Remove both of those steel fittings. The best way is to get a good wrench on them and then repeatedly whack the free end of the wrench with a hammer simulating an impact wrench as they are really stuck. Do not remove any locating dowels. Leave all hex plugs as those are the oil galleries and the shop will remove and clean out the oil galleries, verify they will do this.

Pistons
-- Remove Rings? Bearings?
-- Send Piston Assembly without top cap and bearings?
Hang on to pistons until you see if they are any good or not and if the block passes measurement. The wrist pin bearing stays in the rod and the wrist pin runs in the piston aluminum. Once you get block numbers the decision can be made as to pistons and rings. Compare the thrust face of the lowest edges of the piston skirts to the for-aft sides and see if the waffle pattern is the same depth on the thrust as the sides. Some pistons did not have the waffle pattern but you can see excessive piston wear.

Crank
-- Remove Timing Sprocket
-- Anything else before sending to shop?
Nope nothing except the key that the sprocket is sitting on. You have to lift up the key with a small cold chisel without nicking the crank, the nick in the key is fixed with a file. It is not in there that tight either

Shooting to have it at the shop for Tuesday.
What do I need to get them to check for and in what order?
They should know what to do or ask for direction. Basically hot tank all aluminum, measure block and crank, clean out oil galleries. If you want, have them get those 2 steel fittings out as they have the big tools to do it easy.
Your head has probably been rebuilt for that price, I would consider it good to go.

The bare rods should also be sent to resize and check for straight and twist but there are no signs in the bearings that this is actually necessary either.

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Old 08-10-2014, 12:20 AM   #83
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Probably want to read what I posted as it got edited as I missed your answer regarding the head.

Go to J/Y and get replacement steel fittings for block and intake water.

Once the oil pump gears are out inspect the inner gear tips under a bright light at an angle and see if the curve is smooth, if not need new. I would replace them just because.

Inspect the oil pump cover for any circular scratches gouges and same for the pump recess in timing cover. Take the pump oil before shipping to hot tank.

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Old 08-10-2014, 12:24 AM   #84
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Block is in good shape most likely and a 0.5mm over bore and new pistons will make it good if not. Block must have wear at 0.003- 0.004 or less, no out of round and no taper or it gets bored out. The pistons must show no thrust face wear at all. Used and worn pistons have a tendency to break every so often so reusing them is only a good idea if they are perfect.

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Old 08-10-2014, 02:58 AM   #85
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Taking tomorrow of for Caving! (You, might call it spelunking...)

I'll digest everything Monday and confirm with the shop all the detail and advice provided.

Also,
-- Should I get them to hot tank the Intake Manifold or the Exhaust?
-- Would posting close up pictures of the Piston Skirts help? Piston Rods?
-- I have been wiping the oil off these things before I take pictures, is that ok?

I'll check back in after Caving fun...

Thanks. What a ride!

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Old 08-10-2014, 08:34 AM   #86
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
Taking tomorrow of for Caving! (You, might call it spelunking...)

I'll digest everything Monday and confirm with the shop all the detail and advice provided.

Also,
-- Should I get them to hot tank the Intake Manifold or the Exhaust?
-- Would posting close up pictures of the Piston Skirts help? Piston Rods?
-- I have been wiping the oil off these things before I take pictures, is that ok?

I'll check back in after Caving fun...

Thanks. What a ride!
Hot tank ALL aluminum, including the intake. Get those steel fittings taken out and then go to the J/Y and get replacements that are not all eaten up.

Pick a single piston and photo all 4 sides of the skirt, do not clean, just wipe off with a rag.

Wiping bearings is fine.

Based on block measurements will tell you what you want to do with rods and pistons. Do nothing right now.

You want actual numbers back from the shop not a generic "it's OK".

It would be a good idea to ask them exactly what they did to your head. Did the seat all valves or just the bad ones etc. they have a copy of the work order so they know what they did.

Have fun in the cave!

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Old 08-11-2014, 04:42 PM   #87
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Continuing....

Heater Fittings:
Heater Fittings - Engine & Intake.JPG

Piston Heads/Skirts: #1 Piston, near Timing Chain Side.

Timing / Intake
Piston Head #1 - Timing Chain Side.JPGPiston Head #1 - Intake Side.JPG

Transmission / Exhaust
Piston Head #1 - Transmission Side.JPGPiston Head #1 - Exhaust Side.JPG

Are these piston shots good enough?
Let me know if you need more detail, no problem.

That dark shadow near the oil ring is cooked oil, I guess.
The shadow is larger and darker on the Intake side.

On the Intake Manifold (I'm stripping it down for the hot tank dip),
Do I need to remove the rear bracket torx head bolt?
Intake Man - Rear Bracket Torx Bolt.JPG

Also, the fitting for the return hose to the expansion tank has a corroded end:
Intake Man - Expansion Tank Return .JPG
Can I do something about this?

Please note that all heater fittings and this return fitting never leaked under my ownership. The first year (1996) the dealer owned the car (they say), I've had it since 1997.

...
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Old 08-11-2014, 10:28 PM   #88
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Well, the coolant concentration was seriously low at sometime for some reason. If you could snag another intake I would do that as repairing the elbow off the top is a trick. The elbow is pressed into the manifold and shows signs of seeping. A replacement intake will be simpler to deal with than finding the proper replacement intake with a good fitting a 95 to 99 is a definite fit for a replacement intake. Probably get an entire intake so you only have to pull a single elbow out of a junk block.

Leave that torx screw.

There is skirt wear on the #1 piston and the #4 cylinder is a slightly larger diameter so piston wear is usually less.

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Old 08-11-2014, 10:47 PM   #89
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Engine:
-- Everything off except dowel & hex plugs

Intake Manifold:
-- Everything off except 3 pipe fittings and Torx Screw
---- PVC, Surge Tank Return, Rear Heater outlet
--- Transmission side rear Heater Fitting removed

Taking apart the Timing Cover:
-- Do I remove the upper motor mount bolts?
-- Taking off oil pump cover & gears...
---- Do I remove the oil pressure relief valve?
-- Any pictures needed for the pump gears?

Crankshaft:
-- Everything off, including sprocket & Key

...
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Old 08-11-2014, 11:29 PM   #90
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
Taking apart the Timing Cover:
-- Do I remove the upper motor mount bolts?
I would as they can come loose/out at the shop and they will get lost.
-- Taking off oil pump cover & gears...
---- Do I remove the oil pressure relief valve?
Only if replacing it.
-- Any pictures needed for the pump gears?

Crankshaft:
-- Everything off, including sprocket & Key
Even though this was from a burned valve and not spun bearings, low oil, etc. once the crank comes back I would run several solvent soaked (brake clean or acetone) q-tips through the crank oil passages and follow them up with a lint free material to remove any leftovers. You will be amazed how much stays in there after the hot tank.

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Old 08-11-2014, 11:42 PM   #91
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

The shop is supposed to wash all of that crud out.

Remove top motor mount studs, they are reverse TORX on top.

Do not touch the oil bypass valve as replacements may now be made of unobtainium.

Just replace pump gear set and need pix of the pump cover and the timing cover recess.

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Old 08-12-2014, 01:48 AM   #92
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Correction:

Intake Manifold:
---- PVC, Surge Tank Return, Rear Heater outlet

NOT "Rear Heater outlet", but
Brake Booster Vacuum Hose Fitting

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Old 08-12-2014, 06:52 AM   #93
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Do not try an pull out that vacuum fitting either. They are NOT screwed into the aluminum.

I would replace that intake based on the corrosion of those steel fittings.

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Old 08-12-2014, 03:42 PM   #94
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Oil Pump:
Inside Timing Cover Recess
Inside Timing Cover.JPG

Unfortunately there are some fine (apparent) cracks in the recess.
One below and right of the top Torx hole and another few below the
Torx hole to the immediate right of the top Torx hole.

Don't know how this happens or if it can be repaired (with JB weld?).
The front cover (other side) of the timing cover has no apparent cracks
near the same position of the inside recess cracks.

Oil Pump Inside Cover
Top Cover - Inside.JPG

Gears
Gears.jpg

Inner Gear
Oil Pump - Inner Gear.JPG

...
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Old 08-12-2014, 04:12 PM   #95
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Replace oil pump - shot.

The timing cover looks OK, those indications (cracks) will have to be checked after it is cleaned and the pump cover looks good.

Stress cracks anre not unusual and are of no real concern.

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Old 08-13-2014, 04:17 PM   #96
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Ready to bring to the Shop:

What to bring & What to ask

Please confirm and add to the list if needed:

Engine
-- Hot Tank
-- Clean Oil Galleries
-- Measure: Get actual numbers
---- Bores
---- Warpage?
---- Other?

Crankshaft
-- Clean
-- Measure: Get actual numbers
-- Other?

Timing Cover & Intake Manifold
-- Hot Tank, Will hot tank affect the oil pressure relief valve?

Pistons
-- Wait for engine numbers? or bring them something?

Head
-- Find out exactly what was done, last December
---- I will verify what was done once I visit the shop.
---- The receipt says Valve Job $175, 2 Valves Replaced $20 (parts)
---- Pressure Test $45, I gave them the seals from the Felpro set.

...
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Old 08-13-2014, 06:12 PM   #97
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
Ready to bring to the Shop:

What to bring & What to ask

Please confirm and add to the list if needed:

Engine
-- Hot Tank
-- Clean Oil Galleries
-- Measure: Get actual numbers
---- Bores
---- Warpage? If cylinders are good then just deck the block
---- Other? Not that leaps to mind.

Crankshaft
-- Clean
-- Measure: Get actual numbers and estimate of cost to regrind to a final bearing clearance on the tight side ~0.001"
-- Other?

Timing Cover & Intake Manifold
-- Hot Tank, Will hot tank affect the oil pressure relief valve? Nope.

Pistons
-- Wait for engine numbers? or bring them something? Wait and they are probably paper weights anyway. Piston sets are cheap.

Head
-- Find out exactly what was done, last December
---- I will verify what was done once I visit the shop.
---- The receipt says Valve Job $175, 2 Valves Replaced $20 (parts)
---- Pressure Test $45, I gave them the seals from the Felpro set. See if they checked it for flat as from that WO they did a completer rebuild. Head is probably good to go back on the engine as is.
You are making progress.

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Old 08-14-2014, 02:46 AM   #98
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

I intend to bring it in today (Thursday) and want to be ready.

Engine:
-- When you say "deck the block", you mean, check it for warpage?

Head:
-- When you say "check it for flat", you mean, check the head for warpage?

Grinding the Crank:
-- If the numbers (which I will post here, before any action is taken) are okay, is there a need for grinding?

-- Does grinding mean to grind all journals (main and rod) to have the same oil clearance, given a particular bearing thickness?
-- Or grind just the ones that are trouble?

-- And, couldn't the oil clearance be affected by a thicker or thinner bearing?
-- And, when you say "tight", do you mean to keep the oil clearance on the thin (lower) side of the half way point between the "standard" range minimum and the service limit?

For Example:
--- Standard: 0.0002 - 0.0020
--- Service Limit: 0.0024

Tight side would be lower half of Standard Min and Service limit
ie. 0.0002 < tight < 0.0013

I know it doesn't make me an expert, but I just need affirmation that I'm digesting this info correctly.

I know, I've been reading too much...

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Old 08-14-2014, 07:11 AM   #99
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasenpeters View Post
I intend to bring it in today (Thursday) and want to be ready.

Engine:
-- When you say "deck the block", you mean, check it for warpage?
Check for warp, liner protrusion and then machine or take a cleanup cut.

Head:
-- When you say "check it for flat", you mean, check the head for warpage?
Yes.

Grinding the Crank:
-- If the numbers (which I will post here, before any action is taken) are okay, is there a need for grinding?
Polish always and grid if it is not round or wear is excessive. You will have low oil pressure when hot if you have >0.0015+ clearance.

-- Does grinding mean to grind all journals (main and rod) to have the same oil clearance, given a particular bearing thickness?
-- Or grind just the ones that are trouble?
Grind all of them the same amount.

-- And, couldn't the oil clearance be affected by a thicker or thinner bearing?
Bearings do not come in multiple different sizes.

-- And, when you say "tight", do you mean to keep the oil clearance on the thin (lower) side of the half way point between the "standard" range minimum and the service limit?
Yes. Those published limits are not to be considered OK at the higher clearances.

For Example:
--- Standard: 0.0002 - 0.0020
--- Service Limit: 0.0024

Tight side would be lower half of Standard Min and Service limit
ie. 0.0002 < tight < 0.0013
Tight would be ~0.0007 or so.

I know it doesn't make me an expert, but I just need affirmation that I'm digesting this info correctly.
You are.

I know, I've been reading too much...
There is a lot to this and it is not as simple as you would think from looking in a Haynes. You can have bearing clearances too tight and run into serious problems so the idea is to end up with something like 0.001 when using a high end synthetic oil.

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Old 08-14-2014, 07:24 AM   #100
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Default Re: Valve Job Advice - 1996 SC2 DOHC

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